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Mith
03-31-2008, 02:03 PM
Finally decided to stop messing about and make a proper project, a tractor....
Going for 4WD articulated, all hydraulic.

Bought 4 wheel motors and some steel and away I go. I'm buying the other bits as I get decent prices on them, steering valve should be coming this week, might look into pumps next week.

Pic 1 - rough chassis design
Pic 2 - hydraulic motor and mount plate
Pic 3 - rear axle unit

PaulChristenson
03-31-2008, 05:34 PM
http://www.power-trac.com/

http://www.avanttecno.com/web/engpaasivu/engpaasivu.htm

Archdean
03-31-2008, 06:41 PM
Hate to bother the Inventor/Tinkerer IN Chief (ITIC) of NTT! :hide:

I do have a few questions when you have the time or the inclination to splain!

1. What type/output of hydraulic pump will you use?
2. How will you power the above pump?

It's a great project and wait anxiously on the progress!!:tiphat:

Mark777
03-31-2008, 08:33 PM
Mith,

Great stuff and a renewed science. Honestly, I don’t understand why most all tractors aren’t hydraulically propelled, steering braked and all wheel drive. With modern technology (and a basic and narrow minded ‘gripe’ of mine is) why more 4WD tractors don’t have all 4 wheels the same size.

If I understand your design and thinking you will have eliminated:
Brakes. (By diverting fluid pressure to the opposite port and feathering between forward and reverse)
Transmission. (AWD will eliminate front/rear differentials and 4WD ‘wind up’,
Clutch, Pressure Plate, throw-out bearing, pilot bearing and mechanical shift gate)

And all due to the fact you’ve selected a stationary engine and pump. I’m anxiously waiting for progress and hereby nominate you to the IMEA - Independent mechanical engineering award - (a fictitious award at level with the Nobel Peace Prize :D)

Mark

BoneheadNW
03-31-2008, 09:43 PM
Finally decided to stop messing about and make a proper project,

Yeah, all your other projects were trivial!:yum:
Mith, you are one of a kind! If you ever make it to this part of the earth, I have unlimited work for you, for room and board in return of course!:pat:
Bone

Mith
04-01-2008, 03:51 AM
Dean, going to be using a twin fixed dispacement gear pump (2 sections, 1 for drive, the other for steering and accessories). 19cc/rev and 6.5cc/rev (16gpm and 5.5gpm).
Going to kick off with a 12HP which I already have to make sure it works (it'll be grossly underpowered) and look out for a cheap 20-30HPish diesel. I'll leave room for the diesel when I make it, so the change over wont be hard.


Mark, you've gotta assume there is some reason why there arent more articulated tractors about, the 'normal' design of tractors doesnt seem to be all that efficient.
I'll drop in a few check valves for braking, as soon as you let off the drive pedal it will be locked still. I'll probably put a damper on the pedal so you dont let off too fast and hurl yourself over the bonnet.
I'll plumb it so the front and rear axles are locked together, but as if there is an open diff on each axle, so they dont bind when turning. I might plumb it so you can select locked diffs on the axles.
In terms of the drive train, you shouldnt be able to break it, apart from breaking a wheel motor shaft there arent really any bits under meachanical load.

Bone, it might be a good idea for me to be near to someone who knows first aid :D

Cheers guys

Nicahawk
04-01-2008, 07:05 AM
Fantastic project....I can't wait for more pictures.

I'm with Bone....board and room, plus a mule to ride, and a big first aid kit...well what's still in it that I didn't already used.

Bindian
04-02-2008, 01:25 AM
Mith,:wave:
What size tires will it have?
Looks like an awesome "fun" project.
hugs, Brandi

quincy
04-02-2008, 05:45 AM
I see you have the hinged pivot but you might do well to consider torsional articulation at that joint too. With your terrain I would strongly recommend it at this stage.

A couple of 40mm ID flange type pillow block bearings should be man enough for the job.
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u194/Blagadain/pillowblock.jpg
This is a cool project Mith, I admire your tenacity... Cant wait to follow THIS ONE!!! Now put down your computer and get back out to your workshop!!!

I second the IMEA award...!

q

Mith
04-02-2008, 12:30 PM
Nica, sounds like a trip is in order :D

Brandi, 26" tyres is the biggest I can afford, but no reason I cant upgrade when I can. I'm building it big, so I can just upgrade parts when I can. The frame is 5x3x0.25" box.

Q, check the front axle, it'll pivot to allow for bumps. I wanted to keep the middle joint for steering only, the ones I have seen made to pivot more than 1 axis seem to break on occasion.

Now put down your computer and get back out to your workshop!!!Aye! I'll have more pics later, off to the mill to make some holes.

Thanks all

Mith
04-02-2008, 04:40 PM
Made some big holes on the mill using the rotary table.
A little more machining and welding to finish the hubs.
My hydraulic steering bits. Bushes, 1 of the rams, and the valve.

shinnlinger
04-02-2008, 09:05 PM
Mith,

The hydrostatic cub cadets have a linkage that helps reduce the "thrown over the bonnet" effect.

I cant describe it very well and I dont have any pictures, but i bet a web search might give you some ideas. It has the linkage slide around in a spring loaded groove to absorb sudden cahnges in position.

Good luck and awesome project!

Bindian
04-10-2008, 01:20 AM
Mith,:wave:
Interesting project:tiphat:. Something like this always fascinates me as you can go off in many directions with it. :cool:
hugs, Brandi

xPosTech
04-11-2008, 11:28 AM
Hi Mith

Kohler started taking orders for their new diesels 1 Feb., but I have a feeling you will be leaning more toward one of the Chinese knockoffs, if you're gonna drop in a new one. Used, I understand the VW diesels are pretty solid, and adapter plates are readily available. But you're gonna mill your own, I guess.

If I were a betting man, I'd put money down that you're also allowing room for a radiator?

If I remember correctly (Hah!:rolleyes: ) Coop (at that other place) put in a US Govt. surplus 4 cyl gas engine in his articulated Cub Cadet. Or maybe it was a Case?

No, a twin Cub Cadet...CubZilla.

Ted...
...ain't unassuming...

Mith
04-13-2008, 12:48 PM
Ted, I'm keeping an eye out for a Kubota diesel. Nice 3 cylinder maybe, they are dead common, just need to find a machine with one in with a bad trans or something. I'm set on a diesel as I want to run it on red diesel, which is nearly half the price of petrol.
I've found one to measure tomorrow, so I'll measure the length of the engine with the radiator etc and leave room for that on my machine.

Got the rear axle unit tacked together, and the parts for the front are done too.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y282/mith1/artic1/13-04-08_1612.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y282/mith1/artic1/13-04-08_1612.jpg)

Hung a wheel on, I need to order the tyres some time, might have to order 2 and wait to get the other 2, too expensive to buy 4 all at once....

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y282/mith1/artic1/13-04-08_1610.jpg

Mith
04-21-2008, 05:17 AM
I got both the front and rear axle units done now, and almost done the rear frame.
However, no pics as my camera phone has died. You'll have to make do with a pic of a big lathe from last week.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y282/mith1/18-04-08_1457.jpg

quincy
04-21-2008, 08:25 AM
Hey Mith, I dont know if theres an Aldi near you but they have an offer coming up on Thursday 27th April. A 5 mega pixel camera for £40... My dad got one of these last year and it is a very good camera for the price.

http://www.aldi.co.uk/uk/html/offers/58_5771.htm

Mith
04-23-2008, 12:42 PM
Thats a seriously attractive price considering the bits and bobs it comes with, alas, no Aldi nearby I know of.
I'm hoping a new charger will sort the problem, it wont take a charge from the current one. Probably one of the pins bent over or something, but its way to small to fix myself.

Mith
05-08-2008, 12:30 PM
The frame is pretty much done, tacked, but together. I bought the tyres, and widened the rims to fit. Tried to get them seated today and decided it wasnt going to happen. Took them down to the tyre place, and he couldn't get them on either, (and he wasnt happy with the widened rims). So I ordered some tubes ($100) which I was trying to avoid having to do. I was really hoping to have it on its wheels today.
Anyway, it sure looked smaller on paper. Its a shade over 8' long, and a shade under 5' wide. I reckon it'll be 7' to the top of the roll bar.
I'm still tracking down an engine, thats becoming a bit of a frustration at the moment, I let 2 slip through my fingers. I'll find one eventually, but its really holding me up now.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y282/mith1/artic1/DSC_0243Small.jpg

PBinWA
05-09-2008, 11:53 AM
Mith - I like your new camera! It's long over due! :thumb:

Bindian
05-09-2008, 12:28 PM
Mith,:wave:
Is that the seat your going to use? Seems a little high.
Awesome work and photo.:tiphat:
hugs, Brandi

Nicahawk
05-09-2008, 04:57 PM
Mith...your just another genius working in dirty clothes!

Super job!

Mith
05-10-2008, 03:13 AM
PB, had to steal my Dads camera. You dont realise how mad camera phones are till you use a proper camera. I'll buy one one day....

Brandi, yup, thats the seat. Its about the right height for the foot plates. I just thought of an idea to get the foot plates lower, so the seat can be lower. Cant make it too much lower or I wont be able to see the front.

Cheers Nica. I fully intend to go my whole life without wearing a suit, so far so good :D

quincy
05-10-2008, 04:45 AM
Are those tyres from a scissor lift Mith? They look the job. As for that seat, it does look a bit high but on the other hand it sure does looks COMFY and I guess when you build up around it it will look less out of place! Nice work on your progress so far, LOOKS GOOD!
Just curious about your plans for the machine. Are you thinking about mounting FEL and backhoe to that unit or just using it as a tractor?

Mark777
05-10-2008, 07:25 AM
Fascinating Project Mith! None even remotely like it that I've ever seen.

I’ve been staring at the monster in your picture (frame, wheels, seat) for a long while now and can visualize the completed project.

I’m sure the engine-power source predicament will present a solution in the very near future. It’s been a genuine treat to witness the transformation from idea, draft and build process for me…and surely most anyone following along. Keep plugging along and it will all come together.

Great tutorial, amazing pictures and I’ll be here to the end.

Mark

Mith
05-11-2008, 03:50 AM
Q, they are actually brand new tyres, probably a similar type to those used on lifts though.
I think the seat looks higher than it actually is, it doesnt look odd up there. I would prefer it lower though. And yup, its real comfy, I've got one on my mower too :D
I might drop a loader on the front, and a 3 point on the back. If I get enough HP somewhere down the line I'll add another pump and a 540rpm motor on the back for a PTO.
My parents are moving house, and they'd like another loader so we can load stuff at one end and unload at the other. Putting stuff on pallets would be much faster than using boxes and moving them by hand.

Mark, I guess the only big visible bits to be added is the hood, steering wheel and maybe a little rear bodywork. With all the hydraulic plumbing it needs it'll probably look like an accident at a spaghetti factory on wheels.
3 pumps, 6 filters, 2 valve blocks, a steering valve, bunch of cartridge valves and diverters and a whole stack of actuators

Thanks guys, I'll get another photo when it looks different.

xPosTech
05-16-2008, 11:32 PM
Looks really good , Mith.

Those tires look like the ones on the little three wheeled loaders that the delivery trucks from the lumber yards carry around with them. They fit on the back of the trailer and use the lift arms to raise themselves up for transport.

Will the tires not hold air at all? I remember your trick for seating the bead. Did they ban you from that stairway?:yum::yum:

Ted

Mith
05-18-2008, 12:51 PM
Cheers Ted.
I ended up tubing them, getting the beads on was still a hassle, and luckily they havent banned me from the steps as I had to use them again to get them to seat :D Works like a charm I tell you!

All the frame is welded, a little paint and I'll bolt it together, then its pumps and engine time. I'll sort some pictures in the next couple days....

waughd
05-19-2008, 08:10 AM
Hi Mith
possible dumb question
are the hydraulic motors equipped with sufficient bearings etc for the strain of wheels being bolted straight to them or am I missing something?
I have not had anything to do with these beasties before.
Great project BTW
Des

Jim Slagle
05-19-2008, 08:19 AM
Hi Mith
possible dumb question
are the hydraulic motors equipped with sufficient bearings etc for the strain of wheels being bolted straight to them or am I missing something?
I have not had anything to do with these beasties before.
Great project BTW
Des

Des,

WELCOME TO THE FORUM!

Mith
05-19-2008, 09:18 AM
Thanks Des.
You can specify 'wheel motors' that come equipped with the necessary bearings to support the load. I think the option cost me $50 more per motor.
Normal motors wont take more than a couple lbs shaft side load, these take in excess of 1600lbs.
Welcome, stick around, cheers

SPYDERLK
05-19-2008, 05:31 PM
Thanks Des.
You can specify 'wheel motors' that come equipped with the necessary bearings to support the load. I think the option cost me $50 more per motor.
Normal motors wont take more than a couple lbs shaft side load, these take in excess of 1600lbs.
Welcome, stick around, cheers
Thats straight radial weight isnt it? What about axial thrust and bending torque on the shaft causing it to bow on side hill type work?
larry

Mith
05-19-2008, 05:53 PM
Larry, the radial load on the shaft obviously depends on how far out the load is from the wheel motor mount. I made my rims offset so they are centered over the motor mount, so they are good for their maximum rating.
I cant remember the max thrust load, but its more than enough for the machine.
I could find the shaft load torque graph if you want to take a look.

waughd
05-19-2008, 07:48 PM
Thanks for the warm welcome
More questions if I may
Any chance you can find time to give full size details for the tyres?
Are you willing to share wheel motor details?
This is one interesting project.
Des

OhioTC18
05-19-2008, 07:52 PM
Welcome Des...........

SPYDERLK
05-19-2008, 09:59 PM
Larry, the radial load on the shaft obviously depends on how far out the load is from the wheel motor mount. I made my rims offset so they are centered over the motor mount, so they are good for their maximum rating.
The side thrust force multiplied by the radius of the wheel is what concerns me. This force applied inward or outward on the tire contact causes a pretty large bending torque on the motor shaft at the bearing. The problem would be more and more severe as you went to bigger diameter wheels. Do the motor specs deal with that parameter at all?
larry

waughd
05-20-2008, 02:07 AM
Mith
I am concerned with just 1600lbs per wheel.
Bear with me as a newb and used to metric to as well.
I assume your beastie will weigh in at around 4000lb when completed.
That it will be roughly balanced front to rear by the time engine is fitted and bucket/loader is fitted.
This puts approx 1000lb on each wheel at rest.
If my understanding is correct any load added to the front by bucket or forks would put double that on the front axle
you have 1200lb spare on front axle with both at 600 spare so are limited to 600lb lift at rest.
Any movement acceleration/deceleration forces would need to be added to this calc and effectively reduce load capacity.
Perhaps someone can check/verify or correct me on this.
I need to have this right for when I go through the process myself
Des

Mark777
05-20-2008, 08:50 AM
Welcome Des,

I’d like to toss in some of my own observations:

I can’t speak for Jim, but I can say that critical specifications like the wheel motors must meet certain criteria and tested before they can be listed and sold. Here, and much of the rest of the globe, the governing body would be ASME. They will have been tested for close tolerance gear lash, end play and spindle shear strength.

Since the (Mith’s) design centers the wheel to the spindle the proposed 1600#.s X 2 seems well within the assigned duties of his tractor.

If these hydraulic motors are even remotely built like the ones used in industrial environments like fork-lift trucks, both warehouse and yard models, which are commonly used beyond their designed capabilities and are subjected to severely uneven loads, side impacts and roll over’s…and still continue to perform for years, I’m somehow confident they are more than adequate for his tractor.

You’ve brought up some interesting points and hypothetical circumstances but I’m reminded (from my background in controlled deformation) that the burden of weight, lateral forces and impact is not on the motors alone. Telegraphed stresses will be shared and evenly distributed throughout the fame. And then there is the human factor. Most any operator, even with limited experience, can and will react to a loader bucket that’s over filled. Usually, uneven or overloaded balance is instantly communicated to the operator by loss of rear counter balance, loss of rear traction or our own inner ear telling us the laws of gravity are being challenged.

Just my thoughts and my two cents worth :D

Mark

Mith
05-20-2008, 09:08 AM
Des, the tyres are 26x12x12, carlisle tru power brand. 4 or 8 ply, I cant remember.
The motors are 315cc/rev capacity, 850Nm torque @200 bar.
Ask all the questions you want, they prompt me to think about things I have otherwise overlooked.

Larry, the only specs I have is the shaft load chart. To be honest, I have only really dusted over the calculations, I just bought the strongest motors I could afford. I believe they are up to the job, I would have liked to get something with plenty of extra capacity but the cost could have spiraled out of control.
I compared the specs to other machines to decide if they would do the job in real life usage. Once machine in particular was 4000lbs and used motors not much more substantial to what I have. He has many hours on his with no wheel motor problems.

Des, I'll talk in metric then (saves me converting :D)
I'm shooting for 1000kg machine weight, maybe 1200. 300kg lift on the loader and 3 point linkages would be fine, my other loader lifts 250kg and I haven't been left wanting for more. In terms of the linkages, 300kg will allow me to put a 5' mower on there.
So with an implement front and rear at the capacity of the linkage I'm at 1800kgs max. Assuming its balanced thats 450kg per motor, which is below the 800kg allowed load, and should allow for dynamic forces (I think the motors stated specs allow for this too) and if its unbalanced.
Are you planning a similar machine? In terms of wheel motors, if you can afford them the White RE series are the motors to have. They are around $500 each though.

waughd
05-20-2008, 06:33 PM
Mith
That's fine I was not sure just what you were shooting for.
I have seen a similar sized commercial unit that can lift 2400kg it uses dedicated bearings for wheels and motors jut provide drive.
Thanks for info and putting up with me, I am a way off with mine I have a major project currently under way that needs finishing first.
Des

Mith
05-21-2008, 03:29 AM
Des, you arent going to get away with glossing over your project like that, please tell us more :D
Dont hesitate to ask questions, cheers

waughd
05-21-2008, 08:24 AM
Mith
It's a replica of ford's 1995 concept GT90
Some pics of my project and one of the real one
Still a long way to go.
This is the plug or pattern to make the body moulds from, there will be an alloy chassis under it.

Des

Doc
05-21-2008, 09:25 AM
Awesome Des.
Please post details of this in our project threads. Very interesting.

Guess who recently bought a domain for the purpose of starting a car forum?
It's me!!!
NetCarStop.com should be live in the not to distant future.

Mith
05-21-2008, 10:43 AM
Woaahhhh! Thats a different level of skill, and just for a pattern!
The guy who I work for used to restore cars for a living, he is also very involved in my project, hopefully he will take the time to teach me some skills to make some bodywork for it.
I have alot of respect for people who do finishing work on cars (and tractors of course), its something that takes a whole load more skill and patience than I will ever have.
You must have a background in the automotive industry Des. Amazing project, please update us as it progresses!

Mark777
05-21-2008, 10:59 AM
Spectacular!!!!!!!!

Did you digitally plan and transfer specifications from graph to your buck? I'm thinking this buck is for a fiberglass reinforced gel-coat mold which will be the final for casting the body panels?

Beautiful work Des and I wish you great success.

Mark

Mith
05-21-2008, 02:22 PM
Just a quick update....
I welded all the chassis parts together, and applied some paint. Once I get the bushings and pin retainers made for the rams then I can flip it over and start on the controls etc.
My engine is on order, and the pumps are all quoted for, just need to scrape the pennies together to order them.
Its slowly coming together!


Oh, and Bonehead, if you are reading, could'a done with you the other day, managed to stick my finger in a disc cutter and made a decent slice into it. Looks butt ugly, but it still works OK :D

PBinWA
05-21-2008, 03:11 PM
Oh, and Bonehead, if you are reading, could'a done with you the other day, managed to stick my finger in a disc cutter and made a decent slice into it. Looks butt ugly, but it still works OK :D

I'm not sure how having Bonehead stand there and laugh at you would have helped much! :hide:

Mith
05-21-2008, 03:18 PM
Something to soak up the blood ;)

Doc
05-21-2008, 06:22 PM
Looking goog Mith. Looking at just the frame it looks extremely long. It looks plenty heavy duty too. very impressive. :thumb:
I look forward to seeing it come together. :D

OhioTC18
05-21-2008, 06:29 PM
Looking good Mith.

Nice project waughd. Yes please start a new thread in the Projects forum and tell/show us more.


Awesome Des.

Guess who recently bought a domain for the purpose of starting a car forum?
It's me!!!
NetCarStop.com should be live in the not to distant future.

You're a glutton for punishment aren't you.

Mith
05-23-2008, 03:23 AM
Thanks guys.

I spent more time last night on it, a friend came round and we got it up on its wheels. He builds forklift trucks for a living and offered a few ideas for the hydraulic system. We figured out a way of plumbing the wheel drive so that the power can be transferred to the wheels with the most grip, hopefully it will be very hard to get stuck.

waughd
05-23-2008, 03:57 AM
Mith
My turn.......
you aren't going to get away with glossing over the hydraulics like that
Please tell us
Des

Nicahawk
05-23-2008, 07:24 AM
Good progress. I'd like to know the total hours it took to put this all together when your finished. I hope your keeping track.

Your going to have one awesome machine when your finished.

quincy
05-23-2008, 07:40 AM
I want one....

Doc
05-23-2008, 08:27 AM
Your going to have one awesome machine when your finished.

Yeah, you sure are. What a powerful looking machine.


I want one....

Me too. :D

Mith
05-23-2008, 02:48 PM
Des, I assume you are referring to the drive plumbing. I've attached a drawing of the basic circuit. The front and rear axles are in series, the 2 motors on each axle in parallel. The idea being that there will always be power to one of the wheels on each axle.
We thought of some ideas for making it transfer power to the wheel on each axle with most grip, could be done so that it does it automatically, but I'm liking the simple idea of replacing one of the T's on each axle (where the spots are) with a 3 way diverter, that way you can just push the lever towards the wheel with the most grip and bias the flow/pressure towards that wheel.
I guess the same effect could be done with relief valves and check valves, but I like the simple but effective idea of using 2 manual diverter valves, one for each axle.
99% of the time they would be in the middle providing the same flow to each wheel, but you would just adjust it as you would use a diff lock to climb out of tricky situation.

Nica, I'll keep track of the time here, that'll be the easiest way. If we include design time I'll reckon I'm 50 hours in to date.

Cheers guys

waughd
05-27-2008, 01:02 AM
Thanks for kind words

To save your space/bandwidth etc
This has been loosely documented on another forum
gt40s.com under build logs then go to gt90 from the ground up.
You need to register to see the pics

Mith
It seems to be going well thanks for taking time re the hydraulic circuit
maybe someone has already invented the LSD hydraulic valve.....
Des

Mith
06-03-2008, 06:25 PM
Well, my engine arrived the other day. Alot of my hydraulics are now on order so hopefully I'll pick up the pace when they arrive.

ghautz
06-04-2008, 04:20 PM
Impressive project. I must say, tho, that your seat mount does not appear to be up to the standards of your previous work:poke: It looks more like something out of my workshop.

Mith
06-11-2008, 04:31 PM
Are you saying you dont like my woodwork?! :D


I forgot to add earlier that I decided to widen it 8" to make it look a bit more 'right'. Anyway, that sorted now, and it looks better for it. Its 2" thinner than the door, so it's going to be tight getting it out when its done.

Recieved my first batch of hydraulics today. The steering and drive pumps, the drive valve, a filter and a whole load of fittings/ other smaller valves.
Now its time to get really cracking. The drive pump and valve were much bigger than I thought. I put the battery next to the drive pump to give you and idea of size.
The bigger the toys the more the fun!

Mark777
06-12-2008, 06:38 AM
COOL Mtih,

Help me out here...in the first picture (from L to R) I see a small flow control valve, then a 'clutch' driven pump, then a joy stick controller, is that right? The second picture is the wheel motor obviously. Is your new B&S Vanguard diesel?

Thanks for sharing -

Mark

Mith
06-12-2008, 08:57 AM
Mark, in the first picture (L to R)
pressure relief valve for the steering
steering pump with support bearing (to take side load of the belt drive) with a pulley
(.75 to 1.5" BSP adapter)
drive valve (big single spool valve)
second picture is the drive pump with the support bearing on top.

The engine is petrol, I can get good deals on petrol engines and that was the only way I could afford it. No deals on diesels sadly.

waughd
06-22-2008, 11:46 PM
Mith
where did you actually widen the beast, chassis or wheels
Des

Mith
06-23-2008, 12:46 PM
Des, on the chassis. The wheels are offset so that the weight is as close in on the motors as possible.

Mith
06-27-2008, 01:58 PM
Few more bits done today, I'm struggling to find the time, but every now and again alot gets done.
Doesnt look like much, but figuring out how the foot pedal for the hydraulic drive will go is a huge step.

Hydraulic tank. The filler will be on the top. The top plate that the sticky up bit (technical term) is welded to unbolts. Its got about 40 bolts holding it on as it has to seal. Its just so you can get access to the filters in the tank. The 'patches' on the sides and front are where the lines going into and out of the tank will be welded. I welded the thicker steel 'patches' on for a bit more support. It holds a shade over 12 gallons, which should be enough hopefully, thats a bit less that half the total flow rate of the pumps.


The pedal. This is just the rocker part. I'll have a bit coming off the front and back that you press down to move the rocker. It'll be directly connected to the drive valve


probably up to about 100 hours now, alot of standing staring to get an operator position I am happy with.

Mark777
07-10-2008, 09:05 PM
Mith,

Feeling anxious….how’s the project going?

Shot my mouth off all over town, told my buddies about this ‘bloke’ who is engineering in house, his own 4WD hydraulically powered and assisted articulating tractor. Even showed pictures (here in my home PC) all the progress you’ve made :D.


AND now, they’re calling me for updates LOL. Hey, I wish I could get them to send money for the tutorial.

Mark

Mith
07-11-2008, 02:04 AM
:D Mark, global interest! Get 'em all to sent $10 my way if you can :)

Not too much done, I'm wrestling with the hydraulic supplier to get the bits I ordered. I dont think they have got one order right to date. I have a vital spline and hydraulic fitting that they sent the wrong part, waiting for replacements.

Still, I bolted the engine in (and changed my mind about the placement, so I need to move it). Made a rough seat mount (waiting for more bits to finish it). I made the pedal linkage to the valve so it works, and thats apart at the moment while I make a new better foot pedal.
I have a 3pt linkage to fit maybe tonight, but after that I'm stuck waiting for bits, and I also need to go buy a new drill. Really nice ex display metabo down the shop, 1000W all singing all dancing. Need to go pick it up some time.

Mark777
07-11-2008, 08:24 AM
Ahhhhh....this should hold them for awhile :D.

If I could get them to send you ten bucks then they would have to pay me back first! I won't hold my breath :)

Mark

Mith
07-12-2008, 03:40 PM
Mark, they must not know how important the money is, the beer fund is getting low! :D

Started putting some fittings in my hydraulic tank (had to test the new drill putting some 2" holes in it :D). I also welded the lower connections for the link arms on.
Oh, and moved the engine forward too.
Seeming as I'm pulling pictures off my phone, I'll add one of the part of the world I live in.

xPosTech
07-16-2008, 08:04 PM
Mark, they must not know how important the money is, the beer fund is getting low! :D

Started putting some fittings in my hydraulic tank (had to test the new drill putting some 2" holes in it :D). I also welded the lower connections for the link arms on.
Oh, and moved the engine forward too.
Seeming as I'm pulling pictures off my phone, I'll add one of the part of the world I live in.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y282/mith1/artic/Image030.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y282/mith1/artic/Image031.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y282/mith1/random/Image026.jpg

Lookin' good, Jim.

About that part of the world you live in . . . where's the mud? :yum:

Ted

billbill1
07-17-2008, 03:01 AM
Jim, very interesting project you have going on. I check the progress frequently, keep us posted. Should be awesome when you're done.

Mark777
07-17-2008, 06:57 AM
Very cool pictures Jim....

You gotta love the steering wheel, shaft setup. Reminds me of the early Ford model T or a T roadster.

I count five 'Sheeves' on the crank pulley. Is this all to power hydraulic pump and motors??

quincy
07-17-2008, 08:03 AM
I was wondering about that steering column myself, how easy is it to mount the machine with it in that position?

Looking really good Mith. I am looking forward to the youtube clip of you riding that monster through your local mud pit...!!!

Mith
07-18-2008, 01:11 PM
Ted, a stones throw to the right in that picture is a big muddy swamp :D Didn't fancy taking the van in there, might not see it again (and I already had to get a tow out that week already, from a different muddy hole, oops....)

Mark and Quincy, the steering is just placed there, it will be mounted in a more normal position :D The picture is a little misleading.

Mark, there are 3 hydraulic pumps, 2 belts needed for the drive pump (should have had 3, but there isn't room on the shaft), 2 belts for the accessories pump, and 1 for steering.

Quincy, I'm looking forward to making that clip :D

Thanks all


While I'm making a post, had to clean out the workshop (couldnt find anything) so I figured I'd roll the machine out. It just fits, designed that way sir (ahem)

Nicahawk
07-19-2008, 05:19 AM
That's one cool puppy! Get your design work protected (patients or ???) and sell/market the plans for others who might want to build one. Just a thought.

Good work Jim! I always look forward to your updates and pictures.

Mith
07-20-2008, 03:45 PM
Cheers Nica.

I dont have the money to patent anything, or the time to idiot proof any of my plans. As far as getting any money out of this stuff goes, hopefully one day someone will see the projects and make a job offer I cant refuse.
I've got a couple plans and ideas I have kept to myself until I can work out a way of protecting the ideas. I guess the stuff I show like this project are more for fun/learning than anything. I've done a few bits and bobs for money, most recently built some steel display racks for a garden machinery dealer.

xPosTech
07-21-2008, 09:07 AM
[quote=Mith;14633]


Jim what's the story on the cool air inlet on that big fat Briggs? Looks like an tractor driver type happy face. I don't know if I missed you telling us of a possible logo.

It may be a trick of light and shadow but I like it.

Ted

Mith
07-22-2008, 03:52 PM
Ted, the air intake is a cyclonic air filter, an option on the larger Briggs engines. Its the same filter you'll find on the larger Deere and Kubota mowers.
I'm not seeing a happy face? :D

Doc
07-22-2008, 05:11 PM
Cheers Nica.

I dont have the money to patent anything, or the time to idiot proof any of my plans. As far as getting any money out of this stuff goes, hopefully one day someone will see the projects and make a job offer I cant refuse.
I've got a couple plans and ideas I have kept to myself until I can work out a way of protecting the ideas. I guess the stuff I show like this project are more for fun/learning than anything. I've done a few bits and bobs for money, most recently built some steel display racks for a garden machinery dealer.

I agree Mith. heck put together a how to manual. I'd be happy to market it for free for you on here, and you could put it on ebay. Maybe make some cash or lead you to another opportunity.

That's one cool puppy! Get your design work protected (patients or ???) and sell/market the plans for others who might want to build one. Just a thought.

Good work Jim! I always look forward to your updates and pictures.

Well said Nica! I agree. One cool puppy.
I also look forward to the updates and pictures!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :thumb:

quincy
07-22-2008, 05:29 PM
Yeah, same here. I find myself loggin in to NTT as often as possible to check on Miths progress. Always a delight to see an update. Same goes for a few guys working with me (and some further afield), they're also following this thread. It's becoming a real talking point in my circle of engineering colleagues.


Q

OhioTC18
07-22-2008, 06:49 PM
I'm not seeing a happy face? :D

I'm thinking this might be the happy face he sees

Bindian
07-23-2008, 02:17 AM
Ted, the air intake is a cyclonic air filter, an option on the larger Briggs engines. Its the same filter you'll find on the larger Deere and Kubota mowers.
I'm not seeing a happy face? :D
The cyclonic air filter is also on the larger Mahindras.
hugs, Brandi

Mark777
07-23-2008, 06:42 AM
Yeah, same here. I find myself loggin in to NTT as often as possible to check on Miths progress. Always a delight to see an update. Same goes for a few guys working with me (and some further afield), they're also following this thread. It's becoming a real talking point in my circle of engineering colleagues.


Q

Quincy (& Jim),

A mirror of your thoughts of interests are gaining momentum over here as well.

Wasn’t kidding about a small following of friends who ask “How’s that English Guy Doin’ on His R’ticulated??”

Jim, this may be the least expensive way (FREE) to protect your collective work and engineering notes from companies and manufacturers that exploit others ideas and make them their own:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2006/0201124.html

There just shouldn’t be anyone getting a free ride from all of your work.

Mark

Mith
07-23-2008, 05:05 PM
Doc, maybe when its done I'll think about making some sort of technical write up. I'd like to do something on the backhoe, I've had alot of requests for details on that, but in a truly selfish manner I wont give up details of the geometry for nothing.

Quincy and Mark, way to put the pressure on :D
I'm pleased the project has drawn so much interest. I tend to keep the projects quiet locally, don't want to encourage the local thieves, so its nice to have some feedback. You guys know more about it than my neighbors :D

Mark, I don't think there is anything here that is worthy of a patent, just other peoples old ideas rehashed. I don't think there is anything new. If there is, go ahead and patent it, just remember me if you get rich :D

I've got all the major components now, so when I get my act together we should see some faster progress. All this chat and no pictures? Shame on me. To be fair, I haven't done much, just lots of time consuming fiddling. I've got the hydraulic tank full or water to test for leaks. Didn't do too badly, a few seeps and 2 dribbles. I'll patch them later in the week. The galvanized fittings I used welded really badly, I don't think they were very decent quality steel. Live and learn I guess. Saved $120 over using bulkhead fittings though. A 1.5" BSP bulkhead fitting is $40 alone.

Anyway, got a pedal I like (and a damper on the foot plate). Needs a little grinding, but you get the idea.

olcowhand
07-23-2008, 05:41 PM
Jim be VERY careful welding galvanized metal!! The gases coming off welding it can KILL you!! The galvanize prevents a good weld, so it needs to be ground off the base metal where the weld will go. Get the galvanize off the immediate weld area & it'll weld just as normal. When welding the galvanized stuff, set a fan on low behind you so as to blow the fumes away from you. We wanna keep you around a while....many people who've welded this stuff aren't with us any longer!:shock:

Mark777
07-23-2008, 07:21 PM
olcowhand,

DITTO!!!

This is what I do (Jim & Others)....

I use a 60% -%40 solution of Muriatic acid and water. I NO LONGER fool around with welding, grinding or shaping any metal which has been galvanized. Instead, I dip ALL my parts in a 5 gallon plastic pail of the above solution and these parts are stripped and absolutely spotless with no traces of galvinized materials. It only take 1 hour to strip the most aggresive hot dipped galvanized parts imagineable.

THIS STUFF WORKS!! And Muriatic acid can be had at any hardware store inexpensively.

I retrieve all of these parts with a strong magnet and rinse them off with clean water. They are ready to weld without any hazardous fumes. This is especially good for anything 'piped' into hydraulic related systems.

Mark

Bindian
07-23-2008, 08:58 PM
Mith,
Do you have any photos of a BSP bulkhead fitting? Here is a link to aircraft fittings. http://www.skygeek.com/hardware-an-fittings.html. They come in mild steel and also stainless steel. Don't know about galvanized.
hugs, Brandi

Mith
07-25-2008, 05:11 PM
Thanks for your concern guys. I ground off the zinc in the weld area, and used appropriate caution with regards to any fumes.
I think the base metal was just so poor it wouldn't weld well.

Brandi,
http://www.flowfitonline.com/acatalog/HA02.jpg
these are plated mild steel. Basically an extended male to male adaptor with a locknut. Up to about 1" the price is sensible, but after that it doubles every 1/4" you add. Same with hose. The 1.5" suction hose will cost about $100. I would imagine I'll have $1500 is hose easily.
The fittings I used in the tank are galvanized plumbing fittings, from $2 to $10. About 1/10 of the price.

Mark777
07-25-2008, 07:09 PM
I've always heard not to use galvanized fittings with hydraulics......urban lengend??

Hey, what do I know?? :D

Mith
07-26-2008, 09:08 AM
Do you know why Mark?
I would assume its to do with flakes falling off into the fluid, or the fact they wont hold pressure. Dont know, not heard that before. I know copper is a no-no, but didnt realise galvanised was.
I can always remove the zinc from the fittings (where it isnt already removed for welding).

Bindian
07-26-2008, 11:16 AM
Do you know why Mark?
I would assume its to do with flakes falling off into the fluid, or the fact they wont hold pressure. Dont know, not heard that before. I know copper is a no-no, but didnt realise galvanised was.
I can always remove the zinc from the fittings (where it isnt already removed for welding).
Jim,
I think Mark is on to something. I seem to remember something about that also. Might be the heat build up causes the fittings to loose some compostion and contaminate the fluid and could cause harm to your pumps and actuators (cylinders).
hugs, Brandi

Mark777
07-26-2008, 06:10 PM
Bindian hit the nail on the head =

Heat and line surges loosen the galvanized coating internally. The partially dissolved coating becomes ingested by the pump and causes premature valve spool and pump failure.. . Plus welding metal that's galvanized produces 'galvanic re-deposition'.... a fancy term for molten galvanized coatings that resurface and adhere on, or near welds.

FROM Vickers Mobile Hydraulic Manual:


"...Malleable iron fittings are suitable for inlet, return and
drain lines only. Galvanised pipe or fittings have no place in
a hydraulics system, except to connect cooling water to heat
exchangers. The zinc has adverse effects on some types of oil
additives and could also flake off and cause unit failure."



Mark

Mith
07-27-2008, 03:18 AM
Cheers guys, time to replace the galvanised fittings with malleable iron ones. The ones welded into the tank just need cleaning up, they are just straight pipes so I can grind the coating off the inside.
Lucky I posted here and you guys picked up on it, could have been expensive. Just got to find a supplier for non-galvanised fittings now....

Mark777
07-27-2008, 06:47 AM
Jim,

I wouldn't replace them. I would remove them and give them the one hour soak in Muriatic acid. Once their rinsed off....you have the malleable iron fittings (spotlessly cleaned) and ready to reinstall.

I currently wash all of my small metal parts (not just galvanized) due to the humidity and the surface rust it causes, before I weld anything. The stuff runs about $3. for a gallon container and can be dilluted by as much as 20-1. but you have to remember it's HYDROCHLORIC ACID, and why they use the generic term Muriatic is beyond me. Here's a little something from one of those chemical websites:

"Muriatic Acid is a strong, corrosive, inorganic acid (HCl), manufactured by absorbing hydrogen chloride in water. It is one of the most corrosive of acids, and is particularly destructive to cellulose, breaking the cellulose chain into even smaller units, resulting ultimately in its complete hydrolysis. It is the same chemical as Hydrochloric Acid.

Wear protective clothing, rubber gloves and plastic safety glasses while using. To etch or clean concrete and masonry or metal:
Dilute to desired strength by adding acid carefully to water, avoid splashing.
Start with a highly diluted mixture and strengthen gradually (1 part acid to 20 parts water).
Apply solution. Bubbling indicates solution is strong enough.
Flush thoroughly with clean water and immediately after cleaning or etching is complete."

Mith
07-27-2008, 05:07 PM
Mark, hydrochloric acid, would battery acid do? We just dont have the variety of products you guys have, I cant think of a shop around here that is going to sell bottles of acid, unless its for a particular thing, like battery acid. (The town I live near pretty much consists of charity shops, fast food and supermarkets, with a handful of 'worthwhile' shops hidden on the outskirts).


Found some time in the workshop. Progress was slow due to the heat but some stuff got done. Nearly all the controls are in place, which is a great excuse to sit in the seat and 'test' (and slack off).
The framework around the steering wheel is going to be the bones of the dash and bulkhead unit. The valve unit beside the seat controls all the lifts and accessories. Other side of the seat will be the valves to control the drive bias.
Started on one of the pump mounts, when all 3 are done I can start ordering hoses which will signify the beginning of the end of the project.

OhioTC18
07-27-2008, 05:25 PM
Jim, I'm really impressed with what you can do.

Archdean
07-27-2008, 06:34 PM
Mith, try asking a fellow in your area who does concrete/brick layer or a service that cleans/maintains swimming pools (lowers the PH) as they both use muriatic acid same thing as Hydrochloric!

I agree with OhioTC18 "I'm really impressed with what you can do."

BoneheadNW
07-27-2008, 10:44 PM
Jim-
It is really looking good. Once you have the thing up and running, could you take some video and post it to YouTube or something similar?
Bone

Nicahawk
07-28-2008, 07:33 AM
Jim, is there a vacant house next to you..........I want to be your next door neighbor............

Hey budddddddyyyyyyy, can you lend me a hand for a minute............http://www.nettractortalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://www.nettractortalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

Mith
07-28-2008, 06:07 PM
Thanks Jerry.

Dean, I've got a fitting swimming in battery acid right now to see if it works. What would a brickie use acid for? Thats where I'll look if the battery acid doesnt work, thanks for the thoughts.

Bone, best video I can do doesnt have sound, but I'll sort a video :D

Nica, give it 6 months and this house might be on the market, then you can have me at the bottom of your garden (but only if you let me play on your tractor :D)

OhioTC18
07-28-2008, 06:39 PM
What would a brickie use acid for? Thats where I'll look if the battery acid doesnt work, thanks for the thoughts.


A brickie would use Muratic acid to clean off the bricks from mortar and dirt.

Mith
08-02-2008, 03:45 PM
A few more bits and bobs done. The seat mount is roughly done. Most the stuff is still tacked at this point, and obviously alot of it will have sheet metal attached.
The 2 valves to the right of the seat are for the drive bias (to send power to the wheel with the most grip).

2 of the pumps are attached, I'll attach the 3rd and then make the frame all the tensioners will mount to that tighten the belts. The pumps are mounted on plates that pivot, so with a threaded tensioner on the end of the plate I should be able to make sure the belts are really tight.

All going well I'll order a batch of hoses next week. Hey, it might even be working by the end of the month.....

OhioTC18
08-02-2008, 03:47 PM
Jim, that's looking great. We wanna see a video of it running and working when you get there.

Mith
08-02-2008, 04:17 PM
Thanks again Jerry. I'll try and get a decent camera organised when its working. The first time its fired up might be quite amusing too, there will probably be a few plumbing mistakes to make things interesting (front and rear wheels going opposite directions, steering reversed etc)


Something I forgot to add the previous post, a quick question on hydraulic oils. They advertise grade 32 to grade 100. I assume this is the weight of the oil, if so, any thoughts on the oil I will need. Temps here go from about 20F to 98F. Cheers.

Doc
08-02-2008, 10:54 PM
Kewl Mith. Good pics. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who uses the tires to hold my tools while I'm working with something else. :D

For hydrol oil I'll recommend Kubota Super UDT. Good stuff.

Mith
08-13-2008, 03:23 PM
Doc, the tyres are just designed to hold tools :D I try to avoid storing anything too valuable on there though, I have a habit of forgetting and running over stuff :o

You wouldnt be able to take a photo of the label on a SUDT tub would you?

Nicahawk
08-14-2008, 07:21 AM
Doc, the tyres are just designed to hold tools :D I try to avoid storing anything too valuable on there though, I have a habit of forgetting and running over stuff :o

You wouldnt be able to take a photo of the label on a SUDT tub would you?

Mith......Was up early today so walked over to shop and snapped a couple pics for you. Not the best, but might save Doc a little time. Let me know if you need better pictures.

Mith
08-17-2008, 05:30 AM
Cheers Nica.
I'm trying to see any numbers that will tell me the weight of the oil. Is there a number to the right of the 'KU40105' in the first picture?

Nicahawk
08-18-2008, 09:26 AM
Cheers Nica.
I'm trying to see any numbers that will tell me the weight of the oil. Is there a number to the right of the 'KU40105' in the first picture?

I remembered to check this morning. Those are the only numbers.
Check out Kubota's web site under Tech Service. Shows different lubricants and applications. May be of some help.



(http://www.kubota.com/)

Mith
08-18-2008, 01:23 PM
Ah well, thanks for looking.
I'll go have a look at the Kubota site now. I'm just trying to find out what weight of oil will work for me, figured if I could find out what weight UDT was then it'd give me a ballpark.

Mith
08-29-2008, 05:22 PM
Starting to come together. Most the main stuff is there, just need to tidy up the edges, and work on the bodywork around the dash. It looks a bit funny just stood there on its own.

Archdean
08-29-2008, 08:04 PM
Jim I believe that the Kubota Super UDT is the finest Hydraulic oil on the planet and as a user in 3 tractors you can definitely FEEL the difference!!

FYI and I recommend it beyond all others!!

Dean

http://www.messicks.com/Articles/superudt.aspx

http://www.kubota.com/F/support/greasesched.cfm

Mith
08-30-2008, 09:42 AM
Dean, I went ahead and ordered some generic oil last night. It'll cost $260 to fill the tank with this cheap stuff, so I cant imagine what it'd cost to fill with SUDT.

Nicahawk
08-31-2008, 07:54 AM
Dean, I went ahead and ordered some generic oil last night. It'll cost $260 to fill the tank with this cheap stuff, so I cant imagine what it'd cost to fill with SUDT.

Just curious Jim, how many gallons/literes did it take to fill it?

ABTW, lookin good! :respect:

Mith
08-31-2008, 01:07 PM
Its not full, but it'll take 60 litres (~16 gal) to fill I reckon.

Spiffy1
08-31-2008, 02:12 PM
Looking good Mith! Now turn that seat around and you'll have a PT 14 series! :poke:

Speaking of which: my PT 2445 runs 15 gallons of oil for the 45HP diesel using only 10W40 heavy duty motor oil [not entirely uncommon in things like skid steers around here as it handles the temp range well, but I believe the big names add anti-foam agents ect to it so it acts a bit more like hydro fluid]. IMHO it's just a bit weak choice with it running everything through there: the hydo, hydraulic "PTO", steering, and FEL, but conversly, I'm more than sure you'll be fine with your 16 gallons of generic hytran in yours.

I didn't notice; are you planning a hydraulic oil cooler too? For just the wheel motors you might get away without, but I'm positive you'll need it if planning any hydraulic PTO.

Mith
09-02-2008, 04:02 PM
Cheers Spiffy.
The reason I went with hydraulic oil over motor oil is the anti-foaming. From what I saw, the motor oil handles a wider temp range than the hydraulic oil.

I don't have a hydraulic PTO, if I have enough HP I'll go ahead and make one, but add an extra tank. No cooler, hopefully it'll have enough volume to stay cool. I'm not sure how well the engine will run the wheel motors, if its easy enough I'll go ahead and make a PTO. Only issue is, because its so wide I need 6' attachments to cover the width and I dont have the HP for attachments that wide. I'd really like a sidearm flail though.

Do you have any specs on your machine? Like wheel motor size and pump sizes? Love to see a few photos of the hydraulics etc.


I got my first set of hoses the other day. Its mostly the low pressure lines. In the pic they are the suction lines for the 3 pumps. 0.75", 1" and 1.5" bore. I need to go and buy a 2" spanner for tighten the bigger hose fitting. They were some expensive hoses.....

Spiffy1
09-02-2008, 06:37 PM
Hi Mith!

Yep, for the anti-foam ect., I think you made the right choice on the hytran oil; with additives motor oil is probably fine, but the PT runs the motor oil "as is" and while I know that it needs the temp range, I think the motor oil sacrifices a bit of efficiency.

On my 2445 (24=wheel loader style instead of 14 or 4 utility style; 45=45hp):
15GPM at 3000psi for the PTO ( I believe about 20cc/rev)
Around 5GPM for the power steering and loader (same pump chamber for those, doubled with the PTO in a separate chamber)

The wheel motors are quite similar to your White (they might even be White, I need to look), but they're driven from a variable displacement pump at 5000psi max so I'd have to reverse calculate any numbers: rough guess (assuming my math is correct too!) about 30L/min divided between 2 circuits each feeding two wheel motors in series.

I'll try to find a bit more info later.

Edit: I think the White REs were mentioned here earlier, but I don't think used.

Spiffy1
09-02-2008, 06:50 PM
The variable pump with tram shaft and a couple of the hoses out of the way (the double pump for the PTO and PS/FEL is in front of it).

Spiffy1
09-02-2008, 11:52 PM
A couple more thoughts on the hydraulics:

I beat my brain on this one a while back yet can't fight the math: when putting a manual valve on the PT's PTO I thought it would be nice for variable speed; for starting, stopping, and reversing, the variable speed is great - but not constant use. However, with the constant volume pump, the valve effectively regulates pressure [as far as the pump is concerned] not volume. So what? Everything diverted is "wasted power", if 25% goes through the valve bypass and 75% to the motors the pump is still consuming 100% of that volume X the pressure [although lower pressure, so it still does prevent stalling the engine if that occurs only at full pressure]. Again so what? 2 problems: 1) more heat going into the oil than necessary [let's say the pump is 90% efficient, that 10% has to go somewhere; in the previous case only 75% of the 10% was needed; ditto with the valve itself - not so much when fully engaged or fully open] and 2) you don't really have a torque range [on a gear or variable pump, torque and speed are inversely proportional to use the power in the best ratio of torque and speed for job], mostly a speed range.

For the simplicity [not to mention $$$! for swashplate pump :eek: ] definitely worth seeing how the pump works out, but I have to play Devil's Advocate on occasion!

The other thing, are the left and right wheels for each "axel" in series, not sure if I'm reading your schematic correctly though? I think, front and rear generally are in series so the 2 tighter circle tires can turn at the same rate and ditto on the wider circle.

A quick calculation that may be of interest here [double check my math though!]:
For an engine [rather than electric motor which is often figured at twice the output per HP rating than the same rated engine] I think you figure 1L/m @ 3000psi for each HP.

Keep up the good work Mith!

Spiffy1
09-03-2008, 11:06 AM
The other thing, are the left and right wheels for each "axel" in series, not sure if I'm reading your schematic correctly though? I think, front and rear generally are in series so the 2 tighter circle tires can turn at the same rate and ditto on the wider circle.

On second glance, I think your schematic does show the sides in series and "axels" in parallel with your "posi-trac" valves at the T-locations.

Mith
09-04-2008, 01:52 PM
Spiffy, thanks for the thoughts and the pic -

I understand that some of the larger CAT equipment uses motor oil in its hydraulic systems, so I don't think there is anything wrong with it. Not sure how they go about the non-foaming issue, maybe they add additives?
I guess you arent putting just any old oil in yours, do PT spec oil for it?

So you have the same pump for steering that you use for your loader? Does that mean that when the steering hits the relief the loader stops?
I weighed up the options for using the same pump for accessories and steering. In the end decided to spend $300 more and get a separate pump. Not too sure at this point if it was worth it.

You are exactly right on your analysis of the fixed disp pump with a valve and the variable disp pump. I think the pedal will work more like a power pedal than an accelerator pedal. Press the pedal more and the pressure to the motors increases. If the pressure is more than is needed to move then you go faster. It might be weird to drive, but hopefully it'll work. Variable disp pumps were big money, $2k for something that might have worked.
Thats the part that I am most intrigued to test, this project is really an experiment every step of the way. My drive pump is 68l/min (18gal/min) and I'm hoping the tank will be able to cool that flow. In all probability I wont be running all full engine speed, so the flow will be far less. I'm only running about 1500psi full pressure too.
Using your calculation, at full speed and pressure I will be about on the money with my 31HP engine. Adding a hydraulic PTO would probably be too much, its an option for down the line though.

The wheels on each axle are in parallel to allow for different speeds when turning. The 2 axles are in series. As you say, the diverters just replace a T in the lines.

Thanks for your posts, its handy to be able to compare my system to a proven design, interesting analysis too.

Mith
09-04-2008, 02:07 PM
I think this has all the bits on it and is right.....

quincy
09-05-2008, 06:08 AM
Have you seen this video clip Mith?

http://www.steinerturf.com/videos/430-max-tractor-hi.html

Mith
09-09-2008, 04:56 PM
Quincy, yea, I spotted that. I think the steiner uses a hydro drive and 2 diffs rather than all hydraulic drive. Nice machine though.

Spiffy, I remember why I thought the fixed disp pump and valve setup would work now. The CADtrac uses that setup, I had a word with some owners and they were quite happy with the operation. I'll be sure to let you know what its like, nbot expecting it to be good as a variable disp pump setup though.


I tore the tractor down and painted all the chassis. Just working my way through assembling it all now, and then hosing it all.
I added some sheet metal onto it, a bit on the side of the dash, and also the tunnel through which the hoses run.

quincy
09-10-2008, 04:47 AM
Quincy, yea, I spotted that. I think the steiner uses a hydro drive and 2 diffs rather than all hydraulic drive. Nice machine though.

Thought it might give you some ideas for the tin work when you get to that stage.

haffasst
09-10-2008, 04:01 PM
Mith, it looks great. One hell of a project. Can you get a pic of the articulating point? Just nosey-----LOL

Mith
09-10-2008, 05:42 PM
Qunicy, true, I hadnt thought about the sheet metal on them. I'll have to find some closer pictures of how its formed around the engine.
I have been looking at the Struck crawlers. They have the same engine and a similar pump setup, so the bonnet is similar to what I'll need.

Haffast, there are some pictures at the beginning of the thread. The following one is about the best I have. When I assembled that joint I didnt have a camera, so not too many photos.
The rear section has a 1.75" pin welded into it, the front section has plates with bushings attached. The bottom plate is bolted so you can take the joint apart.





Started doing the hydraulic plumbing today. Its pretty involved. Looks like an accident at a spaghetti factory in my workshop at the moment.
So far its going well. I'll have to modify part of the dash board structure to fit in the suction hose for the drive pump, this is the problem with designing a structure to fit parts you dont have to hand.
My exploits in the workshop are starting to get noticed, got an interesting fabrication job to go see about later on in the week.

Mith
09-14-2008, 03:43 AM
Done lots of plumbing. Routing the big hoses is like wrestling a snake, its quite hard to scale, but the big hose in the pictures is about the same size as my wrist. Just fitting in 10 mins here and there at the moment.

Sorry about the picture quality, its very dark in the w/shop. I'll try and take the next ones when the sun is up so its a bit lighter.

Got a hydraulic PTO motor. Probably a bit big, but the price was right. Its massive, weighs easily 100lbs if not more. Its next to a K62 trans (in bigger garden tractors) in the photo for scale.

haffasst
09-15-2008, 04:59 PM
Mith, Thanks for the pic's. Nice work, I wish I had your talent.

Mith
10-04-2008, 01:51 PM
Haffasst, thanks. If you want to do a project like this, my advice is to just go ahead and give it a try. When you break it down, and with the help of people on forums like this one its amazing what you can achieve.


Well guys, its real close!
Sadly, I messed up and ordered 5 of the hoses wrong. So I have to wait for new ones to come. Ordered one 4" too short, and 4 with the wrong ends. I could have had it going this weekend..... Never mind, I would have probable been rushing to get it done this weekend if they had of been right, less mistakes when I take my time.
Just got to fit a few more hoses, make a steering wheel boss, make a battery box, fit the fuel tank and do the wiring. I might even bleed the suction lines through in anticipation of the hoses coming next week :D

Nicahawk
10-05-2008, 06:42 AM
I'll be watching for the dust cloud first time you take her out for trials!

Mith
10-06-2008, 04:28 PM
Fired it up for the first time today! Could do little more than twitch the steering as its on axle stands awaiting the final fittings, but atleast it does something :D
I had forgotten to tighten one fitting on the steering, a large shower of fluid later that was sorted.

Not really all that exciting in the scale of things I suppose, but I've spent thousands of pounds on it and thats the first sign of life, I'm over the moon. Lets hope the last few fittings I need turn up soon!

If I can get it to do something more exciting I'll take a video tomorrow. My camera doesnt have sound, but apart from the engine there isnt much to hear.