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rangerdave
09-12-2008, 12:12 PM
Hello, I have an Antonio Carraro TRX 8400 68 HP tractor. It broke in half on me while I was lifting the front end off the ground to place some jack stands under and do some maintenance.

I am looking for any information out there about possible manufacturing defects in the frame...

There was no rear implement on at the time of the failure either...

Thank you for any assistance you can give me.

Mith
09-12-2008, 01:27 PM
Hi Dave, sorry to hear of your bad luck.

Maybe you could take a couple steps back and take some pictures showing the position of the break.
In the second picture it kinda looks like there are some bolts missing. Seems like an odd break, especially since it occurred when the tractor wasnt under load.
I'm assuming it isnt under warranty

Welcome to the site

OhioTC18
09-12-2008, 04:44 PM
Welcome to NTT Dave. That's a nasty break. I don't think I've heard of another member here that has an Antonio Carraro, but I could be wrong. If there are any guests lurking that has one, maybe they'll join in.

quincy
09-12-2008, 05:58 PM
Welcome. That IS a nasty break.

Where did you position the jack when you were lifting the tractor?

olcowhand
09-12-2008, 06:24 PM
Looks like the ears where the bolts threaded into broke off??? NO place on that tractor that a jack should have done that! I would definitely contact the importer about this one. It must have already been fractured & weakened before you jacked her up.

Doc
09-12-2008, 08:19 PM
Hey Dave! What a first post. Sorry about your luck. Like others said that is one nasty break. Worst I've ever seen.
Welcome to net tractor talk.
Enjoy and post often. :D :thumb:

Jim Lockes
09-12-2008, 10:23 PM
Hi Dave
What a rotten brake. No pun intended. I looked on the net for you but couldn't find any history on your tractor. Both pictures look like fresh brakes. No rust showing.
Jim

rangerdave
09-13-2008, 12:07 AM
Thanks for the comments guys! I've included a picture of the tractor as it looked this winter when I was taking pictures at a few of my jobs. Unfortunately, the tractor is an 9 hour round trip travel away from me to give you a better picture.

This is what the dealer sent to me.... Now imagine it covered with all of the body panels!!! I was only guessing how bad it was... It was much worse in the end... Yes, I think the ears that tore off where the 3 bolts are missing should have been a lot thicker. I was shocked to see that the metal housing is barely thicker than 1/4 inch in spots!!! I was expecting 1/2 like most every thing I've ever worked with.... But anyway, even my smaller tractors like these Pasquali have thicker frames made of real steel in the center, not cast!!!

Nicahawk
09-13-2008, 04:31 AM
Welcome Dave.

Ouch! It looks like you took the bolts out before you took the pictures. Correct or were they missing? Were you using a jack to raise it or lifting it with the FEL?

When you get back to the tractor (9 hr trip) take a few more pictures from some different angles if possible.

Good luck with your repairs....can you get it on a trailer?

Jim Lockes
09-13-2008, 11:53 AM
rangerdave
What I found on the net was that the tractor will lift 4600 lbs. Those logs look pretty heavy. Maybe the rough terrain and to big of a load is the problem.
Jim Lockes

California
09-13-2008, 02:04 PM
Am I interpreting the photos correctly?

In the second photo it looks like all the bolts on the bottom edge had fallen out. So when the front of the tractor was lifted, the back didn't lift with it.

rangerdave
09-13-2008, 03:04 PM
Well, I am planning a trip out to the dealer where it has been sitting for the past FEW months on Monday... I will take more pictures and try and get a shard of metal so that I can send it out to an independent 3rd party for testing....

We transported it on my friends ramp truck.

The failure occured when I was lifting the front end with the loader to perform some maintinence. I had raised the front end off of the ground to secure some jacks underneath, but before I could do so, there was a horrible groan, the whole tractor just sagged into a pool of hydraulic fluid... I was standing to the side of the tractor working the control lever. There were no other implements on the 3pt hitch.

The dealer says the bolts must have been in the frame to have torn the ears out of the rear housing... the bolts must have rattled out during the 4+ Hr trip.

The tractor is supposedly made specifically for rough terrain and difficult work. I have the mid range model of the TRX line at 68 HP.

The photo of the 933 Pasquali is only 30 HP 12 years old and the 462E 42HP Pasquali 7 years old could handle everything that My new 2 year old TRX can do... Those logs only weigh about 500 - 800 Lbs each and are at most 16 ft long. A full twitch of about 4 logs being skidded is less than most farm tractors haul behind them when they are pulling some of these large trailers of hay, rocks or logs....

I traded in the 933 for the newer 462E and I still have it. I bought the TRX because of the rugged dependability of this type of Italian tractor... Having 2 tractors means I can leave one at a long term jobsite leaving the other for quick jobs.

kenmac
09-13-2008, 09:56 PM
How old is the tractor ?? You said you took it to the dealer....warranty ??

rangerdave
09-13-2008, 10:37 PM
The tractor is 2 years and 9 months old now (received mid January of 2006)... It will have been sitting at the dealers for almost 5 months, and I still don't have a broken parts list and estimate of how much it will cost me to fix... Just a scratch of the head figure of $18,000!!! The warranty was for 2 years.... It seems everything we buy these days seems to break soon after the warranty expires....

Doc
09-14-2008, 09:15 AM
That is horrible. Just out of warranty. Are they considering bending the rules for you with this extreme kind of failure? Have you been in contact with the main office or their rep here in the states (someone over top of the dealer)?

GreenWannabe
09-14-2008, 11:26 AM
I was doing a little research on the web, and found the primary web site for Pasquali tractors at BCS S.p.A., here: http://www.bcs-ferrari.it/ (http://www.bcs-ferrari.it/). BCS also manufactures tractors under their own name and Ferrari. Their US distributor is Ferrari Tractors CIE in California, website http://www.ferrari-tractors.com/ (http://www.ferrari-tractors.com/).

The US distributor for Antonio Carraro (http://www.antoniocarraro.it/) is Antonio Carraro America Inc, also in California, website http://www.acamerica.com/ (http://www.acamerica.com/).

Hope this information can help you.

Good luck

Fred

rangerdave
09-14-2008, 12:21 PM
I had contacted a man at acamerica in hoping to start a dialogue about my situation and here is his reply...

From: Dave Smith
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 6:47 PM
To: bclark@antoniocarraro.com
Subject: Help my tractor broke in half!!!



I have an Antonio Carraro TRX 8400 68 HP tractor with a front end loader. It's 2 years old... I bought it new from a fellow in CA named Eugene Canales whom trucked it out to me.

I was lifting up the front end of the tractor with the front end loader (like I have done with all of my tractors)[Bruce Clark] This method voids the warranty on all tractors that I know of and is usually prohibited in a loaders operation manual to put jacks under the frame to perform maintenance....[Bruce Clark] Floor jacks are recommended when performing such a task I heard a groan and then the whole thing just pop, pop, popped in half in a sickening sag and then a pool of hydraulic oil.... I wasn't even on the tractor when it happened, just standing to the side working the levers.[Bruce Clark] Even though this is not recommended, this should not cause such damage. There must have been another factor involved

I am convinced that this is a manufacturing defect and am not getting much of a response from the company...I知 sorry to hear that you have that opinion. The odds of this being a defect is very remote. The dealer thinks the repair would run about 18,000!!! Oh yeah, the warranty expired a couple of months before this happened too... figures...[Bruce Clark] this would have nothing to do with the cause of the failure

I believe that the casting is defective. [Bruce Clark] Then you should send this part to our office. They then could examine the part. If in their expertise and examination they find it a defect, I知 sure they would help you even if your warranty has expired. On the other hand, be aware that this kind of failure would be very remote. When I looked at how thin the housing walls were, I was shocked. Barely thicker than 1/4 inch in spots. [Bruce Clark] The design is very sufficient

They also skimped on the metal around the threaded bolts that hold it together. [Bruce Clark] Please do not insinuate that there is a design fault or that the company is skimping on metal. Such accusations are very damaging if publicized and would be defended in a court of law. Antonio Carraro Tractors are of the finest quality and their reputation for producing a market leading product with a great reputation is very important to the company. That's where the casting initially failed as well. When the shoulder casting around the bottom bolts went, the rest just went for the ride.[Bruce Clark] I would suggest that you look for wear in that area that would be uncommon. Loose bolts can cause this in tire rims. I would look to for loose or missing bolts to contribute to this failure and not a design flaw.

I'm sure that if the integrity of the metal wasn't compromised by any internal defects and the shoulder metal was a little more substantial, the failure would never have happened.[Bruce Clark] A full investigation then maybe required

I had to bring it back to the dealer for the initial 100 hour servicing and we discovered that the cast metal bumper guard weight had cracked in half...[Bruce Clark] I am a little confused, what dealer was this and where? I had never hit it. This is a 1" thick chunk of metal that protects the engine... We sent it back and the one that the dealer got was ALSO broken... no damage to the box it came in either. Third time was a charm...[Bruce Clark] hmmm

I would like to think that the company received a bad batch of cast iron from one of it's suppliers.... My tractor should not have broken in half under it's own weight.[Bruce Clark] It did not. The only other possibility is that some one vandalized it. [Bruce Clark] Please explain The dealer noted that almost all of the major bolts holding the housings together were not tight and 3 were missing. [Bruce Clark] Dave, this issue is finished. If after 2 years those bolts have become loose and or lost, then of course this explains the failure you experienced. If you allowed operation of this tractor with or without a front loader on it, with loose or missing bolts on the bell housing, you were risking a failure due to neglect and lack of maintenance that could have resulted in causing major harm to the operator. He thinks that they were present at the time of the break though.[Bruce Clark] You stated that 典he dealer noted that almost all of the major bolts holding the housings together were not tight and 3 were missing? Please do not contact our department on this issue. Please do not make statements about flaws in the tractor.

Do you think it is possible that since they are putting bigger and bigger engines on the same frame that was initially designed for (40 - 50 HP tractor) that once you get into a 68 - 84 HP tractor, the chassis is under designed?[Bruce Clark] No. I think that all owners must examine their own tractor for loose bolts.

Any advice, answers, comments appreciated. I got your info from this forum...[Bruce Clark] I went to the forum. I think it would be in all our interest, if you explained that the loose bolts caused this failure after 2 years and not a design or material defect.

I will look for this update on the forum.

http://www.tractorforum.com/showthre...0&pagenumber=2 (http://www.tractorforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11137&perpage=20&pagenumber=2)

Well, instead of trying to contact me and talk about my problem, I have been immediately dismissed and told NOT to contact the office about this matter!!!

The thing is, if they could determine that It was vandalism my insurance would cover it!!! Why slam and accuse me of something NO ONE is capable of inspecting... All of the housing bolts are so inaccessible that you have to take everything off in order to inspect all of them. But, it would not be that hard for someone to take a large hand wrench and back the bottom ones out that are accessible. Also, I am not claiming that the bolts were not tight. That was the DEALER!

Vandalism and theft in our neighborhood has been documented and people have been arrested because of it. My property has already been targeted on 3 occasions.

No one working for a living can inspect every single bolt on a tractor before they start it up and work with it every single time!!! Especially the inaccessible ones that are supposed to be designed never to get loose in the first place!!! And when you have no reason to suspect damage AND you are getting ready to perform maintenance!!!

My dealer is the only one in New England and he is a 9 hour round trip from my location... He had experienced too many difficulties in working with acamerica that he (unbeknown to me at the time I dropped it off) quit being a dealer for Carraro.... So I'm sure he is not getting the best response from acamerica either...

He has thrown out an estimate of around $18,000 to repair... I am going to get pictures of my own and see it for the first time tomorrow....

The ONLY other dealer is somewhere in New York and some 15+ Hours away in one direction...

kenmac
09-14-2008, 01:14 PM
Did the bolts (in the second picture of the break) fall out or, did you take them out ?? If they fell out. Looks like the factory would put thread locker on the bolts at the factory. What made you buy that brand tractor ?? I don't know anyone that has that brand. We don't have nor do I know any dealers around me that sells that brand. From the response you got. Looks like you are on your own for the repair.

rangerdave
09-14-2008, 01:38 PM
The dealer thinks that the bolts were present at the time of the break. He also told me that all of the bolts holding the two housings together were not that tight... I have no idea if they used any kind of thread locker...

I bought the tractor sight unseen... but after owning 3 other Italian tractors of this type, I was convinced of the ruggedness and reliability. After taking a trip where I could see the other three tractor manufacturers of this same type, I was very happy with my decision to go with the Antonio Carraro...

Goldoni/John Deere and Antonio Carraro are the only two large scale importers to the US with any kind of dealership parts/service... The other two manufacturers (Ferrari and Pasquali) only have 1 or 2 importers and no real support dealership...

Any way you slice it, I am probably left on my own...

kenmac
09-14-2008, 07:21 PM
Massey fegurson, kubota,case all make large tractors. I'am not sure I know what you mean about importing large scale tractors to the us. The ones I mentioned above all have large tractors. The state ( here ) buy alot of large massey & new holland & a few JD tractors. If I were looking for a new tractor , I would have never thought about looking for or at a Antonio Carraor tractor. I would have thought JD, NH,MF,ETC,

PaulChristenson
09-14-2008, 09:23 PM
Massey fegurson, kubota,case all make large tractors. I'am not sure I know what you mean about importing large scale tractors to the us. The ones I mentioned above all have large tractors. The state ( here ) buy alot of large massey & new holland & a few JD tractors. If I were looking for a new tractor , I would have never thought about looking for or at a Antonio Carraor tractor. I would have thought JD, NH,MF,ETC,

It has to do with working on slopes...
Going backwards
http://www.acamerica.com/Tractors%20At%20Work/TRH%209400%20Piedmont.jpg

Going forwards
http://www.acamerica.com/Tractors%20At%20Work/TRH%209400%20Piedmont2.jpg

Nice hill...revivals Power-Trac 1850 mowers...
http://www.acamerica.com/Tractors%20At%20Work/TRH%209400%20golf%20hill%20web.jpg

Not many tractor manufactures can do this...:D

rangerdave
09-14-2008, 11:08 PM
I guess what I meant was that for Italian made tractors with 4 equal wheels and a low center of gravity with high horse power... I know of only 5 manufacturers that import to the US. Goldoni/John Deere and Antonio Carraro being the only two of the Italian type tractors with any kind of dealership/support presence...

Any kind of normal John Deere, Kubota, New Holland etc. for a similar HP would be a BIG tractor... 2-3 times the size of what I and my clients want...

Although I have been looking hard a a few of the New Holland lines for a dedicated field mower....

quincy
09-15-2008, 03:35 AM
I know this is probably not what you want to hear but I'm going to say it anyway.....

I would have played dumb. You hit the representative with a very intelligent email but opened yourself up to litigation. Seems he's been through the lawsuit ring before and knows his way around.

I would hand this case to a lawyer right now and not do any more research on it.

Your approach should be... "dagummit, my tractors gone and broke in two and its only two years old....."
.... Let the legal people deal with this.

The last thing the supplier wants to deal with is bas press, especially if the manufacturer is looking for growth in the us market. I would be stunned if even a mediocre lawyer could not get an out of court settlement and have that part replaced FOC or at least at a massive discount. That is if he can work around your admitting to lifting the tractor with the loader (warranty void). One would hope that the tractor was designed to cope with stresses beyond those applied during normal duties?
It sounds like you use the tractor for business purposes, so the lawyer should also claim for loss of earnings on your behalf. You bought the tractor for your business, it broke in two, that tractor is now out of action. every day that tractor is not working is lost money as far as you are concerned. This remuneration could go towards the lawyers fees at least...


Its up to you. Seems anything you have done so far is only damaging your case. This problem will only be resolved by lawyer, our speculation on a forum will not help you.

If I were you, I would also ask Doc to delete this thread. A clever defence lawyer could use this information against you if he happened to go searching the internet for information about your tractor. If he googled "Antonio Carraro TRX 8400 68", he WILL be directed to this thread and all the other forums you asked the same question on...

I know you came on the internet trying to find out if there were more cases of Antonio Carraro tractors breaking in half. Sounds like they are a rare machine.

Play dumb, even though you're obviously not. Your tractor should not experience a complete failure after only 2 years, and they know that. The guy you emailed thinks he's clever but he is not. Don't contact him any more. Any correspondence with him will only hurt your cause. He sent a "hard ball" reply to your email to scare you off.

Sorry for being so blunt, I dont mean any disrespect.

I hate lawyers and having to go down the legal route with anything, but it seems like this is the direction you should consider to get your problem resolved.

I hope things turn out good for you.

Q

rangerdave
09-17-2008, 10:00 PM
Thank you for all of the supporting e-mails and concern.

I would like to show you why I got so excited about buying this tractor.... I spent 2 years looking for a new tractor and I was in a position to buy new. When the dealer I had been working with sent me the Antonio Carraro Tractor People magazine, I saw the tractor I wanted... The TRX set up with the forestry package!!!

I also took the dealers advise and bought the Sigma loader that was designed for it.

Also, I found this picture in their magazine that shows a tractor completely lifted off of the ground with BOTH the FEL & the backhoe... I never thought that it was an issue until now...

Doc
09-18-2008, 05:31 AM
Yeah, when they do it in their advertising they sure can't say you voided the warranty by doing something similar. Interesting. Please keep us posted as you move through this ordeal.

BADGER69
11-19-2008, 07:16 PM
Well rangerdave my deepest sympathy for the situation. But you are not alone. Many like myself need the versatility of these " rough terrain, multifunctional work platforms". Reverse the seat and have a good view of the implements, like a rear mounted FEL is a delight.I in fact have no bad or neck issues with constantly turning around to see the discs or plow working... Yep, I watch the implements whilst driving backwards, and drive according to where I have been to stay straight. The earlier Trigone TriTrac 7700 4x4 was a tough beast. I could not wait for the latest Ergit series. The Ergit TRX 8400 is a magnificent work platform. I am extremely disappointed to tell you that three other cases have come to light with castings snapping!!! Earlier models had steel transmission casings, then one steel and one cast iron casing and no problems.. BUT with two cast iron transmission casings, some how, they snap.
At the moment its is every one for themselves. Or should we unit?

olcowhand
11-19-2008, 07:25 PM
Well rangerdave my deepest sympathy for the situation. But you are not alone. Earlier models had steel transmission casings, then one steel and one cast iron casing and no problems.. BUT with two cast iron transmission casings, some how, they snap.
At the moment its is every one for themselves. Or should we unite?

I say all you guys with broken tractors should get one lawyer to represent you in a "class action" lawsuit. It will get much more attention when there are at least a few of you with the same problem. I know though....takes money.

EastTexFrank
11-20-2008, 09:00 PM
Darn, heck of a first post.

My interest in this is more than casual. We could be looking for a bigger tractor for the farm next year and the Carraro 84 Series was interesting to say the least, especially with the neck and back problems I have been having this year. I thought that this tractor might allow me to keep working at the farm since I wouldn't have to spend a lot of time turning round to watch the implements behind. You know the deal, work one day and take 2 days off to recover. Getting old is a bugger.

I went to their website and the dealer locater wasn't working properly. Every time I clicked on Texas, it gave me the address of some dealer in Montana. I emailed the address given in the website for a local dealer. As I remember it, there is one within easy driving distance of me in East Texas but they haven't replied yet and it's been 5 days. After reading your story, the comments by Badger69 and the attitude of their rep in California, I don't know if I want to know where the dealership is. I may just continue looking elsewhere.

rangerdave
11-21-2008, 01:03 AM
Well rangerdave my deepest sympathy for the situation. But you are not alone. Many like myself need the versatility of these " rough terrain, multifunctional work platforms". Reverse the seat and have a good view of the implements, like a rear mounted FEL is a delight.I in fact have no bad or neck issues with constantly turning around to see the discs or plow working... Yep, I watch the implements whilst driving backwards, and drive according to where I have been to stay straight. The earlier Trigone TriTrac 7700 4x4 was a tough beast. I could not wait for the latest Ergit series. The Ergit TRX 8400 is a magnificent work platform. I am extremely disappointed to tell you that three other cases have come to light with castings snapping!!! Earlier models had steel transmission casings, then one steel and one cast iron casing and no problems.. BUT with two cast iron transmission casings, some how, they snap.
At the moment its is every one for themselves. Or should we unit?

Very interesting, try to get some pictures of the damaged tractors if you can and post them.... How did you find out about the others? PM Me about any details you don't want public... "THEY" are watching the other tractor sites I am monitoring for information... US, UK & Italy... last count 25,000 views...

What is interesting is that there was a dealer that had a lot of information that she had given to me and had set up a deal with the company to get my tractor fixed..... She has gone away quietly and I fear "THEY" got to her....

The only way to find out about is to ask... I've been getting the story about how "in the entire history of Antonio Carraro a tractor has never just broken in half" and that it is my fault that it had happened...

If what you say is true, This changes things....

EastTexFrank
11-21-2008, 10:23 AM
I was lifting up the front end of the tractor with the front end loader (like I have done with all of my tractors)[Bruce Clark] This method voids the warranty on all tractors that I know of

I reread your post and this part struck me as really strange. I have a small Kubota and I will agree it is small at 24hp, but lifting the front end off the ground with the FEL in order to get the support stands down is a recommended step in the procedure to remove the loader. So, he obviously doesn't know Kubota tractors. It sounds as if he is adopting the "deny everything and make them prove it" defense. I need to go check the removal procedures for the other tractors because I have never taken the whole loader off them.

Yup, I just checked the L4740 and it's the same thing. "Lift the weight off the front wheels with the bucket". I assume it's the same for all Kubotas. I don't see how you can get the support stands in position without raising the front of the tractor with the bucket.

coadan
11-21-2008, 10:00 PM
I have been reading the rangerdave problems and all of the replies. I would like to throw a few queries.
A: Rangerdave has had Pasquali machines
1. Were they articulated?
2. What were the transmission casing made of.
3. Pasquali motor-cultivators (two wheel tractors) are made by BCS; so did BCS make the Pasquali 933 + 462E? (BCS seems to make the Ferrari + BCS today). Some factory seems to produce Goldini and A. Carraro their own brand. A. Carraro seem to have the spare parts delivery down to a fine art worldwide ( I hope for you all that the issues are resolved, for the brands sake especially).
B: Bolts Issue: according to A.C. procedure the bolts are glued in with (Loctite) at the factory and torque wrench fastened. We all know a bolt otherwise needs a spring washer and torque wrench fastening.
C: All tractor design goes back to around 1910 with petrol engines and all have a RIGID body frame. Unlike the ARTICULATED Antonio Carraro Ergit series.
A Rigid frame distributes all the stresses (like all the bricks in a wall, each part carrying some of the load stress). Is it possible that the Articulated frame transmits all the load stress to 50% of the frame; where some section fails through metal fatigue?
D: The talk of FEL lifting for jack placement raises (no pun intended) the question if it can lift the machine: the load is not enough to have the hydraulic spool relief value dump oil back to the tank. Secondly most FEL need to be 'jiggled' to come out of the quick hitch system, buy the bucket rolling up or down.. All though most tractor brands have the FEL attached to a frame onto the main Rigid frame between front and back wheels. A. Carraro have FEL on the front axle for front mount or on a rear end frame for rear mounting.
Leave you all with that. Bitters help with digestion.

rangerdave
11-22-2008, 05:42 AM
I have been reading the rangerdave problems and all of the replies. I would like to throw a few queries.
A: Rangerdave has had Pasquali machines
1. Were they articulated?
2. What were the transmission casing made of.
3. Pasquali motor-cultivators (two wheel tractors) are made by BCS; so did BCS make the Pasquali 933 + 462E? (BCS seems to make the Ferrari + BCS today). Some factory seems to produce Goldini and A. Carraro their own brand. A. Carraro seem to have the spare parts delivery down to a fine art worldwide ( I hope for you all that the issues are resolved, for the brands sake especially).
B: Bolts Issue: according to A.C. procedure the bolts are glued in with (Loctite) at the factory and torque wrench fastened. We all know a bolt otherwise needs a spring washer and torque wrench fastening.
C: All tractor design goes back to around 1910 with petrol engines and all have a RIGID body frame. Unlike the ARTICULATED Antonio Carraro Ergit series.
A Rigid frame distributes all the stresses (like all the bricks in a wall, each part carrying some of the load stress). Is it possible that the Articulated frame transmits all the load stress to 50% of the frame; where some section fails through metal fatigue?
D: The talk of FEL lifting for jack placement raises (no pun intended) the question if it can lift the machine: the load is not enough to have the hydraulic spool relief value dump oil back to the tank. Secondly most FEL need to be 'jiggled' to come out of the quick hitch system, buy the bucket rolling up or down.. All though most tractor brands have the FEL attached to a frame onto the main Rigid frame between front and back wheels. A. Carraro have FEL on the front axle for front mount or on a rear end frame for rear mounting.
Leave you all with that. Bitters help with digestion.

I just spent a long time replying to this quote only to have it evaporate....
second try, but MUCH shorter.

Thanks Coadan... I keep Mr. Creatsote's Bucket handy for when I need to throw up thinking about how much more money I've lost on buying a new tractor than what I've invested in the crashing stock market...... :puke1: (Monty Python humor....)

I've worked my 3 Pasquali tractors harder then the TRX ever saw. They were 12- 18 years old, NEVER had anything malfunction, and the center sections were real steel and articultated... (if I wasn't 6000 miles away I would post pictures of the Pasquali frame.)

From what I know BCS bought out both Ferrari and Pasquali, but you can still buy a blue BCS, a green Ferrari, or a yellow Pasquali.... Same tractors. Just like how you can buy a green John Deere or red Goldoni.

I won't get into my thoughts about how I was sold on the TRX "rigid" frame.... I'll let you guys discuss the finer points of REAL cast housing rigid frame joinery VS. the upside down "U" shaped side stress bolted housing to the rear end.....

I'm still mystified about how they can tell me that the tractor was not designed to lift it's own weight with the front end loader (voiding warranties, etc..) and list a 4100lb lifting capacity (essentially it's weight) off of the rear end!!!!!!!:shitHitsFan:

OrchardPete
11-26-2008, 04:53 AM
I'm sorry to learn about the trouble that rangerdave faced with his tractor. I own myself a couple Antonio Carraro's and I'm about to buy the third one still this year. The first one I've bought three years ago, which is a TRG with 85HP. By now it shows 3200 hrs and I had no major problems. The second one was a TGF which I worked harder with. Unfortunately I got an older not updated version and the pto shaft quit just recently after 3000hrs. I was told that the "new" TGF's have already an update where the lifetime was very much extended! Even though the tractor was out of warranty, my dealer and Antonio Carraro took care of the problem and repaired the tractor at no cost installing even the update!

I could not expect better service from anyone of the majors. The new John Deere is actually a Goldoni, which some of my friends had and faced nothing but trouble!
I bought the Antonio's after I have seen them working at one of the major orchard operations in Washington. I think buy now they run 50+ Antonio Carraro's and keep buying replacing their Deere's just like other orchards in Washington.

I can only recommend the Antonio Carraro tractors since you won't find anything similar in the industry. I would not go back to a standard Deere or Kubota tractor as they just aren't safe if you have some steeper ground and won't pull nearly as the Carraro will. Also the parts support seems to be great now. Everything I needed so far I got from my dealer, either right away or next day!

Don't know if rangerdave faced the problem because of the loader or maybe just because of no dealer support. However, I understand and appreciate the design of the tractor, which will do more for me than any other tractor but I also understand that it's not a loader tractor because of the oscilation, great feature, makes really the difference. So in other words, you can't compare loader capacities with standard tractors. Also the rear lifting capacity has nothing to do with a lifting capacity of a front loader. That should be too obvious for anybody who's got at least some technical knowledge.

I also understand he bought the tractor in California. Long ways to VT!!!! Why did he not buy in the Northeast??

coadan
11-27-2008, 04:20 PM
Orchardpete: BUD! reading the way you write sounds like you might by a Italian working for the A.C.spa. "I own myself a couple". Come on bud show photos of your machines!!
It well may be that orchards are going that way... Who would not want a machine that can do so much. BUT all brands show on Y-tube what their machines can do, A.C. does not.
Yes it turns out that;
1. ALL A. Carraro models (Mowers to heavier duty TRX) have the SAME castings for the transmission casings??!! These have already been thickened since issues started.. A third update is now rolling into Europe!!! So there is an issue with snapping castings.
2. Your understanding of FEL on the rear lacks understanding of oscillating machines (do you have one or one with a FEL?) You stated
"Also the rear lifting capacity has nothing to do with a lifting capacity of a front loader. That should be too obvious for anybody who's got at least some technical knowledge."
Well the lifting capacity might be the same. But, mounted on the rear all the FEL load and stresses remain in that half of the machine... (rigid machines distribute the load over the whole frame). The 100% stresses on half of the machine could be the down fall of this design. Where does the twist stress go with a full FEL load on uneven ground? To the castings.
By the way A.C. spa are trying to blame loaders and or operators. Rangerdave has a Sigma loader which is specified by A.C. spa and sold by the distributors. Now its Bonatti ( see the advert it lifts the machine off the ground with FEL and backhoe jacks!!). See A.C spa. magazines that others refer to and most countries have a FEL producer making FEL for A.C.spa like Burder in Australia which makes them for Kubota etc.
It all probably comes down to A.C. machines should not have FEL for any other task than moving mulch or sand. A.C.spa say " driving into the stockpile incorrectly will cause shock load!!" Buddy a TRX should be supplied with Bisalloy steel casings for slight cost increase and no problems would occur. There has been false advertising with the top of their range; TRX machines.
A load of B.S. :shitHitsFan:
They are trying the ' divide and rule' between the operators with severe problems. The operators are loosing out! But a brand looses more by treating clients with contempt.
Happy 'picking' orchardpete.

PaulChristenson
11-28-2008, 02:26 AM
Until then..this is my take on your posting...;)
http://images.despair.com/products/demotivators/propaganda.jpg

rangerdave
11-29-2008, 08:36 AM
OK, I'm back from vacation....

Here's a picture of my Pasquali center section... It's real steel square steel tubing that has been stacked and welded.... Compare that to the cast steel housing that is squeezed/compressed against the rear housing... Look at how everything broke around where the bolts are located and how the break originated from the bottom to the top.

rangerdave
11-29-2008, 09:05 AM
PS:
I also included the material thickness of each housing to compare....
Note how there is NO bottom reinforcement to the Carraro housing... It is essentially an upside down "U" that goes from thick on top to thin on bottom...

In so many words... I was utterly shocked to actually see how it was designed for the first time since the whole tractor is covered with sheet metal....

What is additionally frustrating is that the genius engineers that designed the tractor made everything very difficult to work on.... For instance...

- You couldn't just unbolt the service brake cable from the bottom of the service brake and pull the cable with the thimble through the hole in the casing.... the hole is too small. You can't unfasten the other end because the cable is swaged... The only way to remove the pivoting center section is to CUT the perfectly good service brake cable!!!!!!! Then BUY a NEW one, install it and swage it in place, per the service manual... WTF!!!

-To add insult to injury, you can't just unbolt the center section from the front end like you can with the rear end..... EVERYTHING has to be removed from the front end - engine, front end loader, clutch and pto components - in order to get at the retaining system for the center housing!!!!

Our shop has the resources to mend and improve the design to make it stronger so that it would never break again... and I was contemplating a step by step pictoral if I do it.... but I am loath to delve into a complete dissasembally... Had it actually been my fault, I wouldn't be burning all my time on the forum, it would have been already taken care of....

This should not have happened. Period.

olcowhand
11-29-2008, 11:32 AM
I'm no engineer, but I've dairy farmed all my life & do all my own repair work. In all that time, that has to be the weakest tractor joint I've ever seen. Without it being a full boxed section, any twisting effect has to work on that cast iron, which the cast is way too thin even if it were fully boxed instead of a "U". To break one of our Massey tractors in half, we'd likely have to do something that would leave us dead anyway, so we'd not be able to post about it. Bad design/weak design. Bad co. support/bad business.

coadan
11-29-2008, 06:46 PM
Rangerdave you certainly needed a holiday from this issue. "They" try to wear you down into submission. But, your photos tell it all..... Pasquali solid pressed plate housing welded (are the latest models still made like this by BCS?)By the way internet searching shows that BCS sell the brand BCS in Australia + New Zealand and the Brand Pasquali in the U.K. and U.S.A.
A.Carraro. spa casings used to be made the same way (the Trigone series is still working hard!!) But engineers and accountants go for minimization to get greater cost benefit to them.. But that decision affects the clients and damages the brand. 450 Bisalloy steel plate pressed casings would do the trick (or 450 bisalloy plate welded, milled and bushed; but that would cost too much). I wonder if the proprietors (Antonio Carraro and his family are actually informed by the engineering staff of this issue or is staff covering it up because the percentages are still to small for discussion higher up the food chain??)
A.C.spa did build a new special casting facility according to their magazines for the new factory making the Ergit series.
In another thread a Mahindra tractor clients had an serious issue after warranty the dealers would not solve; eventually in U.S.A. and else where Mahindra head quarters totally fixed at their cost and in one case replaced the tractor for the clients!! All subsequent thread replies stated they respected and would think of buying that brand.
Everyone can make mistakes, even in design. My daddy taught me to own up quickly so ma would be surprised and not use that spoon.(did daddy like the spoon?) God darn Antonio get to the engineering department and kick ....

OrchardPete
12-01-2008, 02:22 PM
coadan: from where I come from, Switzerland, we are treating people with :respect: and so do most people here in Washington. I don't know where you come from!!!
Anyhow, you sound like you're the master and know everything so I guess you must own a fleet of many tractors....:pat:
However, I'm not affiliated with A.C. nor do I know people from the factory. All I wanted to make aware after coming across this thread, is to express my satisfaction about these tractors from Antonio Carraro and I guess I'm not the only one as I read they produce about 7000 or so tractors per year. So I assume all those people are stupid then:poke:
I just felt bad reading those comments about one tractor with problems and suggesting that the brand is no good! To me Antonio Carraro provided excellent service and the equipment is awesome!
All I can say is that I'm a satisfied owner and I know quite some people up here who are very satisfied as well.
Again, sorry for rangerdave's trouble though!
Cheers :tiphat:

kenmac
12-01-2008, 07:49 PM
I just felt bad reading those comments about one tractor with problems and suggesting that the brand is no good!



If the factory won't stand behind their BRAND.:rolleyes: Then, the BRAND is no good !!:rolleyes:

dennisc
12-02-2008, 07:36 AM
I have a TRG 9400 Cab with Bonati loader since 3 years! mounted very close to the hood. Nice frame! No problems yet!

Supertiger
12-02-2008, 12:10 PM
I own a Supertiger 1993 (articulated 64hp) and never experience a failure but the hydraulic oil pump once... I use the tractor mainly for logging and snow removal and I am more than please with it. Once a year I check all the bolts and nuts as prescribed in the maintenance manuel. Everytime, I find some that need to be retighten. I'm not suggesting that the guy from AC is right but most of us do not perform a fraction of the maintenace prescribed by the manufacturer. For example, who takes the starter apart after 2000 hrs of operation... if you do so, chances that you will have a starter failure are allmost inexistant. I can go on and on... but life is life.

I wish Rangerdave good luck. I recommand you strongly to go directly to AC S.p.a. cutomer relation. Maybe they will see it differently as their dealer.

Doc
12-02-2008, 03:42 PM
Welcome to Net Tractor Talk Den and Supertiger. I'm glad you found us.
How about pictures of your toys ..er I mean tractors? :D We really enjoy pics of all the different machinery.
Enjoy and post often. :thumb: :D

coadan
12-02-2008, 05:23 PM
I'm sorry to learn about the trouble that rangerdave faced with his tractor. I own myself a couple Antonio Carraro's and I'm about to buy the third one still this year. The first one I've bought three years ago, which is a TRG with 85HP. By now it shows 3200 hrs and I had no major problems. The second one was a TGF which I worked harder with. Unfortunately I got an older not updated version and the pto shaft quit just recently after 3000hrs. I was told that the "new" TGF's have already an update where the lifetime was very much extended! Even though the tractor was out of warranty, my dealer and Antonio Carraro took care of the problem and repaired the tractor at no cost installing even the update!

I could not expect better service from anyone of the majors. The new John Deere is actually a Goldoni, which some of my friends had and faced nothing but trouble!
I bought the Antonio's after I have seen them working at one of the major orchard operations in Washington. I think buy now they run 50+ Antonio Carraro's and keep buying replacing their Deere's just like other orchards in Washington.

I can only recommend the Antonio Carraro tractors since you won't find anything similar in the industry. I would not go back to a standard Deere or Kubota tractor as they just aren't safe if you have some steeper ground and won't pull nearly as the Carraro will. Also the parts support seems to be great now. Everything I needed so far I got from my dealer, either right away or next day!

Don't know if rangerdave faced the problem because of the loader or maybe just because of no dealer support. However, I understand and appreciate the design of the tractor, which will do more for me than any other tractor but I also understand that it's not a loader tractor because of the oscilation, great feature, makes really the difference. So in other words, you can't compare loader capacities with standard tractors. Also the rear lifting capacity has nothing to do with a lifting capacity of a front loader. That should be too obvious for anybody who's got at least some technical knowledge.

I also understand he bought the tractor in California. Long ways to VT!!!! Why did he not buy in the Northeast??
.................................................. .................................................. ...>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Firstly in the spirit of camaraderie of this forum I would sincerely like to formally apologize to orchardpete.
Interesting that I though you was from there cause you just across the boarder? (not mexico way..) They grate cheese and you melt it in hug blocks in front of the hearth. Sorry Bud!
But you did let the side down some what. Imagine stepping into a saloon a and a guy is moaning about the jail guard at home and you say shes ok; he will probably head butt you some..
Blokes with major A.Carraro problems costing them and there wives thousands and now thousands to repair.... do react unfairly. Firstly they too love their choose of tractor and rangerdave has had many of the same design with no problems. The new top range design A. Carraro TRX is letting folks down badly. So you from Switzerland should have supported the http://www.aebi.com/en/agriculture/areas-of-use/terratrac/ the very best technology can build.. Best mowers etc. with a loader work; pictured! But you chose Carraro because it is excellent but cheaper??? But people buy a
A. Carraro spa machines for a multiple uses. The Swiss would make sure there brand is protected so why has Carraro used the same castings for the smaller machines and the larger work..horses (no pun intended) and changed from pressed steel housings for the big machines.. that now snap?
I have checked sites all over the world and sometimes things go wrong: like the Fendt 700 owner in the U.K. that has had the gear box changed by the factory 4 times!!!! A friday or monday machine fixed by the factory. That is what it is about.
Orchardpete I like the cheese slightly crispy with that sweet apple liqueur.
Cheers bud.

Jake W
12-02-2008, 08:06 PM
As someone that has been in business for 23 years I would suggest that the best approach would be for the company to do the honorable thing and send you the parts to fix the tractor, they should also send out a factory tech to do the work.
It would also be worth its weight in gold in terms of PR to send you a gift certificate for two to the best restaurant in town.

olcowhand
12-02-2008, 09:16 PM
As someone that has been in business for 23 years I would suggest that the best approach would be for the company to do the honorable thing and send you the parts to fix the tractor, they should also send out a factory tech to do the work.
It would also be worth its weight in gold in terms of PR to send you a gift certificate for two to the best restaurant in town.

I totally agree!

Mith
12-03-2008, 12:12 PM
I think we must point out that we have only heard the OP's side of the story, I'm not implying that the OIp is bending the truth, but its always worth hearing the other side before you judge.
I must say, before now I've never heard anything bad about AC. Actually, its all been praise.

The dealer noted that almost all of the major bolts holding the housings together were not tight and 3 were missing.
the bolts must have rattled out during the 4+ Hr trip.
If this is the case then it is not a problem with the machine and would not be covered under the warranty. It is not a defect.
Honestly, from the pictures I would also be lead to believe, like your dealer, that these bolts were loose or missing when it broke.
They would have to have been already loose to have rattled out in the trip to the dealer.
Whether or not its easy to get to the bolts or not its down to the owner to ensure the bolts are tight. You either do it yourself, or pay the dealer to do it. Some machines specify in the warranty that you have to get the tractor serviced by the dealer every year to get the next years warranty. Therefore, its down to the dealer to make sure all is good on it.
Maybe AC could have handled it better, but it is pretty clearcut. Bolts were loose causing the failure, its out of warranty, no obligation for AC to fix it for you. I'll bet checking bolts are tight is part of the maintained schedule.


BTW, I have absolutely nothing to do with AC. I have looked over them and liked what I saw, but thats about the sum of my contact with them.

rangerdave
12-03-2008, 10:37 PM
Well, what he quoted is true... but....
1. Look at the pictures and tell me how the three bolts could have stayed in with the rear cast housing and center casting completely blown apart... and then driving 4+ hours to the dealer on the back of a flatbed tow truck on spring time pot hole back roads in Maine....
2. The dealer did not find evidence of either a lock washer or lock tight on any of the threads of the bolts that were left holding the remainder of the broken housing (We can only see some brown/tan putty looking stuff around the bolt hole entrance...) All the threads are clean in the holes and on the bolts.
3. Like the bolts on the engine, frame and brakes of your car, stuff properly engineered shouldn't start unbolting and breaking apart under normal conditions... Remember all of the vehicle roll overs due to bad tires... Toyota offered generous replacement value for ALL of their trucks produced from 95-99 or so because the frames were rusting in HALF.... My 93 Toyota just received a free warranty issue repair for the front end due to "critical steering failures due to metal fatigue on critical linkages..."
The point is (and I may be wrong) but the tire company didn't own up to the tire problem at first, but Toyota seems to instantly pre-empt the warranty issues that present them selves.... Maybe that's why they don't need a bail out like the "Big - 3" LOL

rangerdave
12-03-2008, 11:26 PM
Oh yes... I am not familiar with the therm "OP".... I have also seen "IMHO" somewhere too... Can anyone explain???

On a side note... If what I have heard is true, a few people have already had their tractors break in half and Antonio Carraro is unveiling their 3rd version of a stronger tractor housing center section in Europe this coming year... Which would suggest that they are aware of some sort of center housing section issue... why change the design if the first one or two were adequate???

I don't blame some folks for playing devil's advocate... If they have never had a problem, good for them. They were blessed with a good machine and quality service... I've witnessed how some people beat and neglect their machines and then blame the machine!!!

I'm more of an optimistic pessimist... I expect the worst and am pleasantly surprised when good things happen :wink:

Doc
12-04-2008, 06:02 AM
Oh yes... I am not familiar with the therm "OP".... I have also seen "IMHO" somewhere too... Can anyone explain???


OP = Original Poster (ie: you in this thread....OP is the person who started a thread)
IMHO = In My Humble Opinion


On a side note... If what I have heard is true, a few people have already had their tractors break in half and Antonio Carraro is unveiling their 3rd version of a stronger tractor housing center section in Europe this coming year... Which would suggest that they are aware of some sort of center housing section issue... why change the design if the first one or two were adequate???

I don't blame some folks for playing devil's advocate... If they have never had a problem, good for them. They were blessed with a good machine and quality service... I've witnessed how some people beat and neglect their machines and then blame the machine!!!

I'm more of an optimistic pessimist... I expect the worst and am pleasantly surprised when good things happen :wink:

I had not heard of Antonio Carraro until you posted this thread. And you've owned other tractors made by Antonio Carraro and had no issues with them, or you would not have bought this one.
I also understand the manufacturers being suspicious that we as users abuse the machines. Manufacturers think we are all idiots. We know the manufacturers try to get out of warranty issues with any palitable excuse they can cough up. So it turns into a battle. All you can do is document as best you can, take pictures from all angles and keep your fingers crossed that you are dealing with a reputable dealer and company.
Please keep us posted on this Dave as you work your way through it.

coadan
12-05-2008, 02:25 AM
IMHO the image DSC02595.jpg shows small gaseous inclusions (air pockets!!). This casting material is not homogenous.
Various metallurgical techniques have been used since the iron age (yes this stuff is not that high tech and has a long history). The 19th Cen. Industrial Revolution perfected methodologies.
1. For instance a cast metal cooled down is a 'Cast' product. Now a days long term cooling down in special ovens is done to make the product less brittle. An older method a casting is cooled for weeks in a closed box with lime powder; to slow the cooling and exclude air and moisture = oxidants).
Cast iron is a relatively simple receipt.
Sometimes with boiler castings minute graphite spheres are added for contraction-expansion-strength reasons ( near impossible to weld).
2. A cast metal when beaten by hammer or large industrial pounding machines is called "Forged". Forging makes the metal crystals flatter and closer; hence a higher strength is achieved.
3. Metal like steel with different mineral receipts have different properties, now a days steel is poured and rolled/pressed into plate. Hence Mild Steel or Bisalloy or other types.
Rangerdaves had Pasquali tractors with pressed steel plate transmission housings = no problems for the same job done!!!!!
Every other A. Carraro owner happy mowing, mulching or fork lifting. But the powerful Ergit series TRX with cast iron transmission casings.....??

DOC you state :"manufacturers being suspicious that we as users abuse the machines. Manufacturers think we are all idiots." I have downloaded from Y-tube JCB backhoes dancing, LAMBORGHINI tractors driven by stuntmen on two wheels... These are feats we property owners do not do with hard earned or borrowed money. The factories like JCB do these feats to show A: hydraulic pumps, cylinders and spool valves can take the impossible B: the RIGID Frame can cope.. Hence tough farm or contractor work no problem! Tractor brands showing the crazy stunts assure the strength of the design.
The multitude of mechanics, specialist mechanics, salespersons and engineers adding up to hundreds of years of experience: come up with 10 machine housings broken between them!!
Scientific Metallurgical Reports from WWII : castings were known to be weaker when the Sun and Moon crossed (called a Node in Astronomy)... (strange but true.. Dr. Spoke). Sun spot affect electromagnetic waves, weather etc.

Not once in all the different website threads has anyone queried cast iron being used in extreme cold weather. Is this the correct material to be 'ice cold' then slowly warm up to engine temperature and then get a normal jolt during operation or driving down a bumpy road.

Doc. The manufacturers have experts working for them. In depth knowledge these days could be thin on the ground because the younger generation has more than two carreer fields in a lifetime. Where are they that did the job for 38 years? Each of the websites members have different badges in life: accountant, dentist, ranger, farmer each an expert in their field. My badge is Material Science Conservation. I am used as an expert witness in court on material science issues. I work with labs world wide. It is time for manufacturers to have respect for those that spend their money on their product. And get together to sort things out, go forward. To fix a few machines is a financial drop in the ocean for them and an eternal faith in the brand.

OrchardPete
12-05-2008, 04:26 AM
I totally agree with Mith! I take my tractor to my dealer according to the maintenance schedule. Actually I have to because otherwise I risk to lose warranty coverage according to my dealer! But also look closely at the maintenance schedule as it does demand quite a number of regular checks, like on any type of equipment. My brother, who studied engineering is pretty good at this though. I just bought my third AC tractor this week and they even include a 4 year/4000hr warranty now.

I don't want to underestimate coadan's expertise, which certainly sounds to be on a very high level. I'm not an engineer but just trying to think logic. I called my good friend in Switzerland who is a AC dealer in Central Switzerland since 20 some years and sold in the meantime 1600 AC tractors. I'm operating mine in cold temperatures too, but those guys back in Switzerland do a bunch of snow removal with these machines!
Therefore I believe something else must had gone wrong other than a straight material failure. That's why I think Mith's statement seems to be more of what might have happened.

I was curious about rangerdave's comment about a new housing coming out and asked my friend who's got excellent contact with the factory and he told me that the new machines coming out in the fall 2009 will have some updates but more in the lines of PTO and then a new design with new features. The PTO they are updating because with the new Series they want to go up to 120HP.
Again, that is the information I've got from him and I thought I'll share with you guys as I found it interesting since it's not yet officially published here in the US yet!

I told him about this case and he said it's definitely very unusual and it does not sound to him like a material and design problem. Her suggested that rangerdave gets in contact with his dealer who he bought the machine from who should be able to help him with a special price on parts or something else just because of good customer relation.

Good luck!

Doc
12-05-2008, 05:50 AM
Good informative post coadan! With your background you will be a very popular guy around here. :D :beer:

PaulChristenson
12-05-2008, 11:10 AM
I totally agree with Mith! I take my tractor to my dealer according to the maintenance schedule. Actually I have to because otherwise I risk to lose warranty coverage according to my dealer! But also look closely at the maintenance schedule as it does demand quite a number of regular checks, like on any type of equipment. My brother, who studied engineering is pretty good at this though. I just bought my third AC tractor this week and they even include a 4 year/4000hr warranty now.

Good luck!

Could you point out to us, who live in the East...Where the closest dealer is to an owner in MAINE???

kenmac
12-05-2008, 06:06 PM
In my opinion a tractor of that weight/ size,,shouldn't have a cast frame. I don't buy the bolts just worked loose. I have a 30+ year old yanmar & I have to use a cheater bar to break the factory installed bolts loose.

Mith
12-06-2008, 02:53 AM
I don't buy the bolts just worked loose
From earlier posts in this thread I think we can take that as fact, even the OP seemed to agree that they had.

I still think Quincy gave the best advice earlier in the thread, trying to damage the manufacturers reputation by posting a one sided story on all the forums you can find isn't going to help the case IMO. Sorry to be so blunt about it.

tinkertoys
12-06-2008, 07:39 AM
I worked heavy equipment for several years both operater and service/mechanic. The of rule of thumb was walk around and look, if it was a large item climb on and look around then check the oils etc. I look over my tractors before operation even now. It helps keep the problems down .

kenmac
12-07-2008, 07:43 PM
I still think Quincy gave the best advice earlier in the thread, trying to damage the manufacturers reputation by posting a one sided story on all the forums you can find isn't going to help the case IMO. Sorry to be so blunt about it.

I don't think you are being blunt. That's just your opinion

But, his one sided story my be the truth just as it happened. I can understand his position. I had a problem with an auto. that the dealer /factory didn't want to repair because of my story of what happened. But, it was the truth. By putting signs on my auto ( truck) It made the dealer / factory take notice & make those repairs that , at 1 st. said they wouldn't repair because they had never seen that type of failure before even though the truck was still under full factory warranty

BADGER69
12-11-2008, 01:31 AM
Orchardpete all those with similar snapped cast iron transmission casings THANK you very much.
You stated:"I called my good friend in Switzerland who is a AC dealer in Central Switzerland since 20 some years and sold in the meantime 1600 AC tractors."
My question is how many with FEL (on front or rear)?

“He said it's definitely very unusual and it does not sound to him like a material and design problem”. He is a salesman that sells them without FEL ;also you stated:”but I also understand (from your Swiss contact) that it's not a loader tractor because of the oscillation,”
If your Swiss dealer knows that the A.C tractors are not ‘loader tractors’ why are they sold worldwide with a loader =FEL?

To Mith we say: the manufacturer is getting their importers to blame operator, and or loader or previous spares placed by appointed dealer!! We have everything done by the appointed dealers mechanic; except oil + fuel filter and the daily or weekly items. And a silly 10% discount on a massive repair bill still does not give the answers.

My very First casing to snap occurred when logs were dragged across fields by the Front Hook... I was told that the TRX front hook is to drag or tow the machine not to drag logs. The snapping of the transmission casing occurred on the way back from the drop off point at 8.1km an hour (the most comfortable speed back across the field with the FEL on the rear). A square depression in the field of about 300 mm deep (dozer soil scrape for engineers to see soil type for building concrete slab types) was what I drove into (not seeing it in the short grass).

SO I may and can pull the tractor (3 ton with FEL) out of a mud hole etc by the front hook but not drag an approximate 400-800 kg log across the field?? My engineers say this a laughable...
One other reply was that the Implement (FEL) on the TRX had caused extra load shock to the tractor when driving into the depression.
My various engineers say that it should not snap casings (but these are cast iron) (not pressed plate like previous models) and that a Rigid frame tractor would take all of that..

There are more holes in the A.C. dealers debate on this issue, than holes in Swiss cheese orchardpete.

rangerdave
12-11-2008, 11:25 PM
Well after a week of no phone & internet due to storms rolling through the North East, I am trying to scratch a quick note out before we loose power again to the 2 day ice storm falling on us..... Thank goodness for the wood stove and generator!!!

1. My whole point of addressing this issue was NOT to whine about or defame the company. I was specifically told that: "In the history of Antonio Carraro, we have never had a tractor break in half", "Your use of the front end loader lifting the front end voided any warranty"... It was your fault for using the tractor in a way it was not designed.... The point was to find out if what they said was true. I think the only dealer near me is about 20+ hours away on Long Island NY now... So I'm essentially one of the lone TRX owners in the North East... I was sold on the dependability, service and strength of the tractor line.

2. Excuse me for asking the obvious. I'm no tractor engineer/scientist, but I am a thinker/have plenty of experience around machinery. I refuse to believe that this is MY fault. If the 30 and 42 HP tractors i bought used never broke in half over the course of 15 years (same Italian design concept, and I worked them HARDER), then my brand new 68 HP tractor that looks really rugged should have held up to the job....

3. I spend plenty of time maintaining my equipment and followed the manufacturers recommendations as stated in the manual that I received. The irony is that I WAS PERFORMING MAINTENANCE when it broke!!! I wasn't even ON the machine. Just standing beside it working the controls getting ready to place the jack stands under the front axles TO CHECK BOLTS!!! Thank goodness I didn't get killed or hurt when placing the jacks under the tractor when it broke in half!!!

4. It insults every tractor owners common sense about WHAT their compact tractors should be capable of and then told that the tractor was NEVER designed for that type of use.... Yet they advertise their machines with front end loaders, winches, pulling incredibly HUGE log and hay trailers, fork lifts, mulchers, backhoes, ect.... Yet, most of the older tractors I see still keep plugging along as long as you can still find parts... bullet proof engineering.

5. Oh yes.... about the 4 year warranty thing that orchard pete mensioned... It does not apply to the TRX machines, I would have purchased it to last as long as my 4 years of payments..... As it stands, I have 4 years of payments and only 2 years of use.... and I'm loosing work.

Cheers,
- Dave

rj's barn
12-22-2008, 09:38 PM
Sounds like a very pricey learning experience. Never buy a machine from an obscure manufacturer. I made that mistake once, but I paid a smaller learning tax than you did.

Supertiger
12-23-2008, 09:04 AM
Dear rj's barn,
Not because you don't know something, it make it obscure... AC is the most renowned specialized European tractor manufacturer for vineyard. Of course the dealer network in North-America is not the same as for a more popular brand. The rest of the story is base on personal experience. Even though you have the best machine in the world... if the support from the manufacturer or their representative is not to level, guess what! I am not judging here AC America nore their dealers.

Supertiger

Doc
12-23-2008, 09:38 AM
Good post Super Tiger. I had a post started but didn't get to finish it saying it was a very specialized and established company. Ranger Dave has had multiple machines from them and up until now, all performed GREAT.

I too had never heard of them until Ranger Dave posted his dilemma. But the tractors are very impressive to look at.

Sorry to see RangerDave having this issue and I hope the company will come to the rescue and take care of this for Ranger Dave.

rangerdave
12-26-2008, 08:04 PM
Thanks Doc and Thanks for the Christmas post!

Doc
12-26-2008, 09:54 PM
Your Welcome Ranger Dave!!!!!! Happy Holidays!

rangerdave
01-17-2009, 12:03 AM
Hey everyone, Just an update...

I finally received the denial of claim from my insurance company. It was no surprise either... they totaled my tractor as well.

The insurance company came to the same conclusions during its own investigation.... They sent not one but two claim adjusters, and the opinion written was taken under the advisement from two different cast iron/machining specialists that have been in the business for about 40 years....

No surprises in what they said either since they work with heavy machinery...

I know folks from Antonio Carraro have been following my tractor issue (From Italian Corporate down to former Reps and Dealers)....

One rep tried to help me and get corporate to do what was right and had a deal to cover it under warranty or something like that, but she was either shut up, or lost any standing in the company to make any deals when she left for a different job... We couldn't connect in the limited time of about a week and withdrew any communication to me or any of the forums she was involved in....

Not surprising, the person that would have been involved in resolving the issue at AC America completely denied that any such conversation with the Rep took place about my tractor....

I genuinely believed in the tractor community and service that AC portrayed. I received their Tractor People magazine and read all of the stories from around the world. I couldn't think of a better company to invest $50,000 in a new tractor...

I just didn't expect to get ignored, strong armed and lied to when it broke in half, just out of warranty and still owing $20,000.... And back to using my 15+ year old Pasquali that I have worked harder under the SAME conditions....

I don't appreciate being made to feel like I am the bad guy in this situation by the very people that I was hoping would be supportive...

While I am awaiting receipt of the Insurance Companies findings, I am also talking with other people (that supposedly don't exist) about their tractor problems....

I am just hoping Antonio Carraro will reconsider its position and contact me (and the others) about resolving this issue...

Especially in light that AC just introduced their 4th? generation of center section housings AND introduced a 4 YEAR ACROSS THE BOARD WARRANTY ON ALL OF THEIR TRACTORS!!!

Doc
01-17-2009, 07:23 AM
Dang. The saga continues RangerDave. I sure does not sound good. I'm surprised that a multi million dollar company would not want to take care of the issue or at least work out a deal with you, rather than ignore / argue they are not at fault when it appears obvious to me that they are. :confused:

al b
02-19-2009, 02:13 PM
I totally agree!

I definitely agree but maybe they are having so many failures that they can't afford to admit fault.

al b
02-19-2009, 03:12 PM
From earlier posts in this thread I think we can take that as fact, even the OP seemed to agree that they had.

I still think Quincy gave the best advice earlier in the thread, trying to damage the manufacturers reputation by posting a one sided story on all the forums you can find isn't going to help the case IMO. Sorry to be so blunt about it.

It doesn't matter if the OP stated it or not. The truth is that a professionally built and designed and installed bolt should not come loose.Period. If it does loosen the factory is putting out sub quality product that they need to correct. It might not be on all products but on that one it something that fell through the crack. Accidents don't just happen they design to happen.

tinkertoys
02-21-2009, 11:43 AM
Yalll would'nt like my opinion here so I will not post it.

olcowhand
02-21-2009, 01:38 PM
Yalll would'nt like my opinion here so I will not post it.

Oh come on...lets hear it! :wink:

tinkertoys
02-21-2009, 07:47 PM
Oh come on...lets hear it! :wink:
You are teying to get me in deeep do do.

SPYDERLK
03-08-2009, 10:53 AM
It doesn't matter if the OP stated it or not. The truth is that a professionally built and designed and installed bolt should not come loose.Period. If it does loosen the factory is putting out sub quality product that they need to correct. It might not be on all products but on that one it something that fell through the crack. Accidents don't just happen they design to happen.
Yaaay!.... :respect:Somebody had to say it. Again,I think. But the thread continually seems to lose focus on that truth and to cast tentative aspersions on the OP for using the tractor to do work. :Mickey:
larry

tinkertoys
03-08-2009, 02:20 PM
What about a little walk around and look at am and pm start of work? Looks to me like someone got on the tractor and ran it until it broke. NO look and see or hands on maintenance Over use and abuse!!! When I was working on heavy equipment if this had happened the boss would have fired me and the operater..

SPYDERLK
03-08-2009, 06:51 PM
What about a little walk around and look at am and pm start of work? Looks to me like someone got on the tractor and ran it until it broke. NO look and see or hands on maintenance Over use and abuse!!! When I was working on heavy equipment if this had happened the boss would have fired me and the operater..
:wtf:If you had read the thread yould know that the bolts in question were under covers and not exposed for inspection without disassembly. How often do you drop your oil pan and check the bolts on the rods and mains? After all some may be loose or missing. Hint - you dont have to if the engine is designed and assembled correctly.
larry

tinkertoys
03-08-2009, 07:57 PM
[quote=SPYDERLK;18537]:wtf:If you had read the thread yould know that the bolts in question were under covers and not exposed for inspection without disassemb
Don't look to me like the ones on the bottom are covered up. This horse has been rode to death. I broke muy tractor oh my I need to sue someone rather than assume responiibitiy BOO HOO.. Maybe if I cry loud enough I will make everyonne feel sorry for my stupidity and get a new tractor.

SPYDERLK
03-08-2009, 10:07 PM
I also included the material thickness of each housing to compare....
Note how there is NO bottom reinforcement to the Carraro housing... It is essentially an upside down "U" that goes from thick on top to thin on bottom...

In so many words... [[[I was utterly shocked to actually see how it was designed for the first time since the whole tractor is covered with sheet metal.]]]
[/quote]

[quote=SPYDERLK;18537]:wtf:If you had read the thread yould know that the bolts in question were under covers and not exposed for inspection without disassembly.
[[[Don't look to me like the ones on the bottom are covered up.]]] This horse has been rode to death. I broke muy tractor oh my I need to sue someone rather than assume responiibitiy BOO HOO.. Maybe if I cry loud enough I will make everyonne [[[feel sorry for my stupidity]]] and get a new tractor.
[[[Stupid to trust a company to design and assemble their product correctly?]]] Oddly enuf that seems to be the case here... Makes you wonder what youre paying for -- to assume responsibility for latent defects?
larry

tinkertoys
03-09-2009, 11:17 AM
Ya know what as a know it all you are going to have the last word so go ahead. As I have had my say and I upset you.

Mith
03-09-2009, 12:41 PM
Keep it calm guys, getting heated about it isnt going to help anything.

Larry, dont forget the tractor was over 2 years old when it broke, and out of warranty. Just because the bolts are inconvenient to access doesnt mean they shouldn't be checked atleast once in those 2 years. I'd even expect it to be part of the maintenance schedule to look over the machine and check for loose bolts.

Dave, I'm sorry I am coming across quite hard on this, but without the manufacturer here to defend themselves its necessary to try and see their side too.
Opinions aside, I can completely relate to the heartache involved with having expensive machinery breakdown before its time. I know exactly how sick and helpless it makes you feel, and I'm truly sorry you have been put in this situation. We would have liked, as I am sure you would too, to see pictures of a happy owner.

al b
03-11-2009, 07:46 PM
I was just on another forum and I was reading about a Janma 284 that broke in half on a guys driveway. That's the fourth tractor in the last 6 months. The other two were New Hollands. It seems they break often. His had 18 months and 180 hours.

urednecku
03-12-2009, 01:02 AM
After following this thread from about the start, I will almost have to agree it might be our responsibility to make sure things are tight after warranty is up. Like, I guess I better crawl under my Dodge Ram and make sure the transmission is still bolted tight to the engine, the springs & shocks are still tight, the frame is still bolted tightly to the frame, etc., etc, etc.

Supertiger
04-14-2009, 03:09 PM
After following this thread from about the start, I will almost have to agree it might be our responsibility to make sure things are tight after warranty is up. Like, I guess I better crawl under my Dodge Ram and make sure the transmission is still bolted tight to the engine, the springs & shocks are still tight, the frame is still bolted tightly to the frame, etc., etc, etc.
And you may be surprised at what you can find... Why do you think airplane are safe in comparaision with other transportation???

al b
04-28-2009, 06:06 PM
After following this thread from about the start, I will almost have to agree it might be our responsibility to make sure things are tight after warranty is up. Like, I guess I better crawl under my Dodge Ram and make sure the transmission is still bolted tight to the engine, the springs & shocks are still tight, the frame is still bolted tightly to the frame, etc., etc, etc.

I like to know what you would say if the frame on your one year old dodge broke while you drove down the road. Or your brakes. Or your crankshaft.

Supertiger
04-29-2009, 09:17 AM
Of course I will claim to the manufacturer... Again, we are back to square 1. First, you will be asked to show to the service clerk your maintenance booklet and answered some questionning about the usage of your equipment. As a former VW car dealer, I went 3 times in court againts customer for claims that I tought (as well as VW) were over the LIMITED GUARANTY. We (me and VW) have won every cases. There is situation also when the reputation is more important and a setelment as we call it usualy GOOD WILL is preferable for both parties. As a certified mecanic and car dealer owner then, I can tell you that you wouldn't belived all the scatty claim you face. Unfortunately for the customer and fortunately for the manufacturer, there is a limit to the Guaranty. No one likes to pull money out of his pocket.
And when this is impossible for both parties to agree because they are sitting on ther own positions, then there is legal action...

Supertiger

tinkertoys
04-29-2009, 11:35 PM
The point is YOU need to look at what ever it is you own and assure that it is still in one piece, regardless of age, or YOU might get a surprise.

peterwick
09-23-2009, 03:28 PM
I'm not a logger- or a farmer- or a vineyard worker. I have the machine (pasquali 462e)that rangerdave is using to fill in for his expensive broken tractor. I BOUGHT IT BROKEN IN HALF! OK mine broke the rear axle from the weight on back- but it's the same issue. The machines were never intended to have that load on them, the 6 M10 x 120 bolts that hold the axle to the center section stretched and failed. It was designed for the weight of a man- then a roto-tiller (or winch)- but never a backhoe.
The history of the "Italian" articulated tractor is an illogical extension of a 2 wheel roto-tiller into a 70HP+ beast. The center sections on these machines are not well designed for a loader or extreme loads on the rear. The new ergo (reversible) design put the loaders on the back, to reduce the distance from the pivot. Since it articulates (pivots and rotates) it is a very tricky thing to build strong and small. I use a backhoe on mine but need to tighten or replace all of the bolts in the center section every time. It leaks oil to remind me I stretched the bolts.
I will also say that a cast iron U shape is crap for the torque applied to the center section. If you climb a stump or rock and get the other wheel of that axle off the ground the stress will break bolts or pieces.
If I paid anything near $50K for a tractor I would use it hard and expect it to handle the work it was sold for. If AC or dealer sold it with the loader and log winch they are stating it is "fit for purpose" and I would sue them too.

Where is the tractor now? I would love another project!

peterwick
09-24-2009, 09:43 AM
OOPs-
I assumed it was articulating, after seeing pic's again it is a ridgid frame front steer. The Pasquali's are articulating- a much more fragile design normally. They may have over powered FEL to put enough stress on those bolts to shear them. If there is evidence of them being in place when failure occured.

I'm still interested in the tractor-

rangerdave
09-24-2009, 07:49 PM
One of the reasons why I went with the rigid frame instead of the articulating was because I assumed that the frame would be significantly stronger....

I also assumed that the center section would have been a complete housing and cast thicker considering it is almost a 70 hp tractor (OK 68hp) - NOT an upside down "U" that anyone (except an engineer) in the tractor business would have come up with such a poor design.... It is weak on so many levels. Between squeezing the cast iron/steel (a big NO NO) and the differential metal fatigue resulting from the center section constantly being torqued one way and another just by driving the front wheels up and over stuff... I was HORRIFIED when I saw what the tractor was actually made of when it was taken apart.... because under all of that sheet metal and big tractor looks, there was no meat to the frame.

The bolts did not sheer. They were still in the frame. A couple of bolts fell out because the rear cast iron piece sheered at the bottom....

peterwick
09-28-2009, 01:54 PM
Hi Dave-
I worked for a machine manufacturer for many years. A common philosophy to keep the cost of new designs down is to use as much as possible from the old design. IF this tractor was originally an articulating design they would change the center connection but leave front and rear housings alone. This is indicated by the two drive shafts that run front to back through the U-shaped connector? It does give you access to the U-joints etc. in the housing, but if designed as a ridgid frame they would have been oil bath and never need attention. I have never seen the machine in person- but my guess is they added the new steer axle to the front (Pasquali also offers front steer, and front steer + articultaion) but kept almost everything else from articulating design which would not see the high cycles of front to rear torque due to the rotating barrel connection. I also know that everyone makes mistakes- or assumptions? No machine is perfect just a pile of compromises to do good enough at lots of things.

Did you get it fixed yet? I"m sure it's a pretty ugly bill to add up all those castings- and think you should probably modify the design for your application to have reliability. I suggest that the U- shape be machined to have a (removable) bottom plate to complete the box. Can have holes for grease gun?

If you ever get in a bind with your 462E I might be able to help you out. Jack has taken care of me over the years, but when it gets serious with a Spanish version I have contacts in Spain.

rdbrumfield
12-22-2009, 12:05 AM
Looking at where the casting broke I would think that the bolts would have had to have been in to split that casting right where the bolts threaded through. It would have been still intact there if no bolts were in. The casings would have just separated if the bolts had been gone.

rangerdave
05-19-2010, 10:24 PM
Well, folks have been requesting an update/resolution...
I put the tractor back together this winter.
It took about a month - Some all nighters to get it done so I could work with it before my deadline to work.

Long story short. I used a piece of bridge I beam to cut out a form for a skid plate to bridge the rear and center section together. Then bridged the top and bottom together to the rear of the tractor. Then got rid of all of the plastic bumpers and made better, lower profile, diamond plate bumpers....

Welding the center section sucked - many dealers (including the headquarters) didn't really know what metal it was made out of. When we did comparison tests of known metals vs this metal, we were dumbfounded as to how it behaved!!! Most said cast steel and a few said cast iron.... We tried welding, migging, tigging and brazing with about a dozen methods on some lone pieces not attached to the center section....

Almost all of them would peal the cast off of the piece as the weld would cool, no matter how short the pass. Brazing just would not stick to the metal - simply amazing to watch - No matter how hot the metal got, the brazing material would just sit on top of the metal and roll around, bounce off or peal off... I just didn't have the money to do a metal analysis.. I got the center welded together, but will never trust it. I am only assuming the fix to be the equivalent to a spacer.

I have been using the tractor since Mid February with no problems. This includes logging with the tractor through March - Yeah, AND lifting the front end of the tractor up with the front end loader to put my tire chains on!!!

Erik
05-20-2010, 07:47 AM
nice job!
congrats on getting it back in service!

Doc
05-20-2010, 10:08 AM
Nice work Dave. I'm impressed and puzzled about the material you were trying to weld. That could drive a guy bonkers. Glad you've been able to get real work done with the tractor now. And THANKS a whole lot for coming back and updating us on what you've done. :tiphat:

BADGER69
06-10-2010, 08:03 PM
Never say die with this guy!
He can do just about anything.
A one man "A Team"; bloody brilliant to be that capable.
Re badge it as Daves' Mean Machine. It is now to strength as it should have been for a Contractors Tractor as it was sold to all of us.
The older models like Trigone had pressed plate steel transmission casing and they still work hard. The modern Ergit with castings is a bloody financial disaster.

Go Dave go!

applesmarcus
02-09-2011, 01:18 AM
Quick comment as my breakdown has just happened. Tractor 2 years old under 500 hrs TRX 10400 with cab . It has broken in half in the same place , all bolts still in their threads. This is one of two AC I own with a couple of old MFs and a Case 1340. This tractor is owner driven and used mostly carrying a 600L spray vat. The tractor still looks as new and was my pride and joy. The same tractor was down for weeks last summer with pto drive problems. It has a very well maintained modern orchard/ vineyard enviroment to work in. , never lifted anything heavier than the 3 point linkage spray vat. The dealer has it in his work shop awaiting for a response from AC Australia , I'll keep you posted, photos to come.

rangerdave
02-09-2011, 09:03 PM
Simply amazing.... Yours is the 4th I've heard of... Good luck with the company.... I'm sorry for your loss, because that was the model I wanted to trade my TRX in for after I paid it off....

applesmarcus
02-10-2011, 02:29 AM
My older AC is a TF8400 with a low cab. This I purchased as a used unit 4 years ago and has had a few normal wear and tear repairs, exept when it blew apart the pto clutch basket, $6000 later with a new and improved basket that had a metal band welded around the fingers that house the clutch plates. I'm lucky that I have this one going nicely to back up the 10400 for the next weeks/months?? last season the TRX 10400 had pto drive problems, digital dash failure, all were covered foc by AC Aust. This year I have coolant dripping from the ceiling and the electronic pto switch failing. Minor things but not what you would expect from a $65,000 plus machine. One reason for purchasing the Carraro was the simplicity of the machine. Only 2 weeks ago I had been browsing catalogs for a new cabless tractor to replace the old faithfull Case 1430. I haven't canned the idea of another TRX , but we shall see what support is forthcoming from AC Australia. My neighbor has 2 x TF8400, and 1 TRX, I know they get worked much harder than mine and they have had few probs.

rangerdave
02-11-2011, 10:52 PM
I have owned 3 Pasquali tractors in the past. Not a single problem other than wearing through a clutch or brake cable now and then.... I should have stayed with a new one for about 2/3's of the price!

I have just noticed that the two pins that go from the steering rams to the front steering knuckles have simultaneously loosened/worn.....

Diesel Dan
02-24-2011, 01:10 AM
There is an alternative to the Antonio Carraro here in Australia and it wont have the breaking problems and at the end of the day it could be cheaper for a similar machine it is made by the same company that makes the Pasquali.

Diesel Dan
02-24-2011, 01:12 AM
If you wish to know the brand it is Ferrari and is available 46 to 92 hp

Art454
02-25-2011, 02:16 AM
That cast is just crap cast iron is all....All the junk steel we send overseas and the melt it down and come up with this crap....Have seen it before.
I think they use more sand than cast iron...

Sorry about r luck tho I no it hurts...

Art

rangerdave
02-28-2011, 08:45 PM
Had I been able to get another Pasquali imported I would have gotten it - cheaper... BCS and Ferrari I think are owned by the Pasquali corp... just marketed differently and with different color schemes and flair.... I even looked at them side by side at every opportunity when I was in New Zealand and thought I had made a good decision. ...
But as the saying goes - You can't polish a turd!

Art454
03-01-2011, 02:42 AM
I have seen red color in a cast iron or cast steel or whatever the crap they use...but never seen sliver like r picture showed....anywho I would have done the same thing u did make one outa steel plate to fix it.
Very very good job u did on it.

Art

jleal
04-18-2011, 03:01 AM
I own a mahindra and I have had lots of stuff breaking on it. The metal on it looks pourus like what you have but aparently that is cast iron on yours. Take up welding and learn to fabricate like I have. I have pretty much modified my tractor that it is not a mahindra anymore. A good welder can fix that if you take it apart. Cast iron is a little less warranted for holding up after being welded. Good luck

rangerdave
04-18-2011, 09:34 PM
I own a mahindra and I have had lots of stuff breaking on it. The metal on it looks pourus like what you have but aparently that is cast iron on yours. Take up welding and learn to fabricate like I have. I have pretty much modified my tractor that it is not a mahindra anymore. A good welder can fix that if you take it apart. Cast iron is a little less warranted for holding up after being welded. Good luck

While I thank you for your interest, I am perplexed as to whether you actually read the thread....

I am a good welder and we have a whole machine shop at our disposal - I fabricated the entire rehab of the machine....

I am horribly aware that the scab job in joining the two "cast iron???" pieces together are just a glorified spacer. The issue is that there is no consensus as to what the metal is actually made of (and this is from the manufacturer and dealers) and we are leaning toward some sort of cast iron pot metal...

Short of spending $$$$ on a complete metal analysis, we tried about 25 methods of joining the pieces of cast together. A couple worked minimally acceptable, the others were incomprehensibly failing - we could not even get a standard brazing rod to adhere to it!!! It would bubble off like the metal was made of Teflon.... We even did the same thing with 3 other versions of cast iron and cast steel that we had to see if the brazing rods were bad and the brazing was normal????

I am happy that you got your tractor going. Dealing with the company always seems to be a PITA...

rangerdave
04-18-2011, 09:38 PM
OH - and by the way, IF we could have easily taken the entire center section out we would have. We then would have built an entire new center section out of steel!!!! But in order to get the front half of the center section out, we would have had to remove the loader, engine, transmission, final drives .... etc. in order to get to the 5-6 bolts that hold it on...... just stoooooopid - fix it in place and if it goes again, I'll do something more drastic...

coadan
06-28-2011, 04:57 AM
I decided to learn to make the unbreakable or easy to repair with local materials tractor.
Look at this fantastic group to join: articulated or skid steer. And there is MORE to excite you all. Some might never leave the shop.
http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/LifeTrac

Build the Global Village Set

mf1017
06-30-2011, 01:05 PM
First off, I have been following Rangerdave's story and I want to say again that I really feel for all the headaches you've had to endure.

Also, I know this is an old posting but I have a client who was injured badly when the same thing happened to his MF-471 tractor. He was preparing to help a friend shovel snow using a bucket loader attached to the front of the tractor. With the loader about 2 inches off the ground and with nothing in it, the bellhousing broke in half and he was injured.

I would really like to speak with anyone who has heard about this happening or has had this happen with their tractor, specifically with MF tractors and preferably with any of the 400 series. Also, if anyone is or knows an engineer, has worked in the tractor manufacturing industry, worked in the tractor dealership industry, or just has a lot of experience with tractors, I am very interested in talking to you or them.

Please contact me through email at mftractor1017@gmail.com or PM me on here and then we can either talk on the phone or stick to email. Thanks to everyone in advance for any information you can provide and I look forward to hearing from you!

coadan
06-30-2011, 05:32 PM
The Open Source Ecology has all the videos on
http://www.youtube.com/user/marcinose#p/a
At Ted Talks Marcin shows a picture and cause of setting up Global Village Construction Set. ... The MF SNAPPED!!
See here:
http://www.ted.com/talks/marcin_jakubowski.html

BADGER69
06-30-2011, 06:04 PM
All the Mechanics, Distributors and Engineers in the skid steer and tractor business I spoke to had over 240 years experience. 8 castings came to mind in that time that had snapped.
If it is on the increase the foundries are doing something different or the designers are. The end users are doing the same old tasks.

All the Hill Tractors brands had Pressed Plate Steel housings until recently. Only the A.Carraro brands transmission casing that slide into each other snap. The other brands from on factory have a milled surface to take the stresses and are bolted together differently.
M research shows that all tractors with FEL should be build like the JD 6000 series. Two strong rails form the chassis (like trucks have) onto which the engine etc. is bolted. All stresses are taken up by the chassis.

I am planning on building a Hill Tractor on the Open Source Ecology , Lifetrac system.
This is where consumers take back their power.

Peanut
09-14-2011, 10:12 PM
thats whats bad about cast iron.at times it's really strong but if you so much as tap it at the wrong time or put it into a bind in the wrong place it will snap and shatter like glass.when i was scrappin iron we would take a small claw hammer and hit them old claw foot cast iron tubs and shatter them into small peices so we could carry them alot easier.it would be hard to find a defect in the metal.if them bolts was loose i can bet thats what broke it one good jolt and it's a gonner.i don't know why they didn't make them out of regular iron instead of cast iron.cast iron is alot cheaper to make all they do is pour the molted iron into a mold and do a little bit of machineing.if they would use a solid block of iron then they have to machine out all the metal to cut it down and thats alot of work the good thing is maching it from a block of iron is a solid chunk of metal that will last along timecast iron is full of microscopic air pockets and that ain't no good.

Titus 2>13
06-02-2013, 04:25 PM
I never even heard of the Antonio Carraro tractor until last month. I went on YouTube looking for 20-25 hp. small tractor, I happen to see the AC Tigre 3200 with big wheels on front and thought that would really work good hauling my small firewood trailer.
So I been looking in to buying one of these until I run across this forum, and since I live in Maine where there are no AC dealers, I guess the nearest one is in New Hampshire, a 5hr. drive, I don't dare to take a chance running in to this headache!
In my 40 year experience and opinion, if a tractor or any machine is built right it shouldn't brake like that, and bolts do not fall out or loosen up with a lock washer or thread locker on it period. I bought an [07] Kubota 3400 with loader and Fransgaurd farming winch, now has 400 hard hrs. on it, and not one bolt no where is loose, but I haven't taken the motor apart yet to se if the bolts on the main bearings are loose yet.
I have lifted big rocks so the rear wheels come off the ground, I lifted the tractor with the bucket lots of times, bucket after bucket of dirt, hauled out firewood/logs at times the front wheels come off the ground, and sofar no bolts loose and nothing broke. I've even added accessory's on it with lock washers, and they haven't loosen up or broke.
So I guess that leaves me to buy an ATV to pull my firewood trailer, the only thing left with big wheels on front.

bczoom
06-03-2013, 07:52 AM
So I guess that leaves me to buy an ATV to pull my firewood trailer, the only thing left with big wheels on front.
Welcome to the forum. Hop over to the RTV section of the forum. A lot of us are using Kubota RTV's for hauling our firewood.

Titus 2>13
06-03-2013, 07:59 PM
Welcome to the forum. Hop over to the RTV section of the forum.
Thanks for the welcome! I'm not sure if RTV will work for me, but might be worth a look. Problem is, I haul my cut&split firewood in my basement and my cellar door is only 5' wide. My tandem wheel trailer is 46" wide and my ATV I used to have [before it burnt up, another story] was 50" wide, 8 cord=around 20 trips.
And that is why I was looking up everything I could on the AC tractor, one of their small tractors are 4' wide with big wheels on front. Now that begs the ? of, WHY are all other well known compact 4X4 tractors have small/tiny wheels on front? I looked at another Kubota 20-25 hp, the rear tires are big enough, but the front tires are tiny, which is ok if all one does is ride around on the lawn, but at 12k + no thanks. I have till October.

Doc
06-04-2013, 05:51 AM
WHY are all other well known compact 4X4 tractors have small/tiny wheels on front? I looked at another Kubota 20-25 hp, the rear tires are big enough, but the front tires are tiny, which is ok if all one does is ride around on the lawn, but at 12k + no thanks. I have till October.

I've wondered that also. Some of the CUT front tires seem to small to be effective, but I'm not an engineer. I suppose they know what they are doing, but all the same I've wondered why so small.

al b
06-09-2013, 07:20 AM
A wild guess. I think it has to do with turning radius. The bigger the tire the less clearance.

Titus 2>13
06-09-2013, 10:57 AM
Turning radius might have something to do with small front tires on compact tractors, but if that's the case, ATVs turn pretty good. As for what I need, I'd sacrifice tight turns for more traction, but if I was using a small tractor for mowing lawns all the time, I'd rather have a tight turning radius. It would be nice to have the option, or at least a tire that is not so small on front like on the Kubota BX series, if that tractor had a bigger tire on front, I'd buy it yesterday. Now BCZOOM on this thread has got me interested in side by sides, and now looking for the narrowest one.