Unions?

Thought I'd start another thread instead of hijacking Docs anymore than I already did. Sorry Doc.

Bob, yup, the unions ARE to blame up to a point. I was Chief Steward, Shift Steward, and Commiteeman at the hell hole of a powerplant I retired from. Seems to me the UAW, and others should sit back and see what;s going on. The UAW workers at GM a number of years ago should have been hung by the doodads for sabotaging the product, just to prove a point, at the expense of GM's reputation, and ultimately their own jobs. Rather narrow minded, eh? I always tried to work with the company and union both when bargaining was in the works, you know, the much used win/win solution. Needless to say, it wasn't very popular at times. But come on people, what's wrong with being reasonable, on BOTH sides of the table. Towards the end of doing my time, it really got bad. The company hadn't done any hiring in a good 10 years. So when they finally ran out of enough people to do the job, they went to the streets. It was total chaos. The younger generation, and I don't mean all 20-30 year olds by any means, only the ones I had the misfortune of dealing with, had no business of being more than 3 steps from mommy. Completely unfit for the job, let alone being out in public. And guess what, yes , I had to defend the little gangster wannabes. God am I glad I'm outta there.

But, unions HAVE helped the working person. At the expense of the corporations? Depends on your point of view. If it means a little CEO can't rake in millions a year, and you're a CEO, or a die for my company type, oh yeah, unions are evil.
On the other hand, if you're an actual worker, would the company still treat you decently, such as health care, decent hourly wage, and other perks? Just ask a wallyworld worker how well they are treated.

I guess my point is this. The U.S. has forgotten completely what really is fair and just for everyone. It's no longer, "What can you do for your country", it's what can I scam for myself, and screw everyone else, and I totally agree the unions haven't helped, but neither have the corps.

Wow, I guess since I've been off the road I've been letting it fly. All the crap I heard daily on the CB, truckstops and terminals must have taken a toll, eh?

No problem with the thread drift John ... but since you started a new one for this I'll add my two cents.

There was a time Unions were needed so that the worker did not get totally taken advantage of. That day is gone. DuPont has a local plant here and they worked hard at keeping the Union out. All the other plants in the area Unionized. Dupont was the one lone hold out. That was 40 years ago. Now the only one of those plants still operating and contributing to the local economy is DuPont. All the rest closed down or were sold to companies outside the US, and then they closed down. It's been a roller coaster ride.
DuPont has been able to change it's hiring practices and actually start empolyees at a lower wage then they used to, thanks to no union they were able to agjust as needed in order to stay competitive. Something the auto manufactorers cannot do.

The auto unions cut the throat of the Big three and themselves in the process. The workers only cared about their paycheck and their own retirement ....didn't give a hoot about the longevity of the company. Probably thought they didn't have to worry about that.
And too often the Unions themselves are crooked. They are out to get their share of the workers paycheck. The hiring system is totally good ole boy. It does not matter what you know it's all about who you know or who you are related to.

John, I had a friend who was active in his union. He reminds me of you in the way you tried to handle your union duties. Very conscientious. He tried his damdest to do good for the company and the workers. If a worker was indeed at fault, he didn't hesitate to say so. On the other hand if the company was at fault he did a good job of getting them to change their ways in a reasonable manner for the employees and the company. All to no avail. The company sold out to foregin competition 4 years ago and 300 guys were out of a job without so much as a days notice.

To sum up my babbeling .... at one time there was a place for the unions, and there still could be a place today. But the nature of the existing ones (crooks) need to change, and unfortunately I don't see that changing. Once they have ahold they won't let go. Look at the auto unions as an example.

----edit to add:
John, it is really GREAT to have you back active again. I've missed your point of view and humor all the way around. Cheers! Do you still have your t-shirt?

Doc, thanks for another welcome back, I really appreciate the kind words, and, ofcourse, I still have my T-shirt. How could I ever give it up?

You put it a different way than I did, probably a bit more understandable, but we both seem to agree for the most part. The unions, at least many, appear to just be another symptom of what's wrong in todays society in the U.S. It's downright scary. Any thinking person really has to wonder where we will be in the next 20 years or so, maybe sooner.
Some other like minds had a saying we were sort of fond of, "Buy bullets, lots of them". Roughly translated, be ready when the . No survivalist here, and that may have been understood to mean that. Maybe the old Boy Scout thing of always be prepared would be a better thing to say.

At the DuPont plant near you, the unions would have said at the other plants, it was because they were unionized, that DuPont treated their workers fairly. Could be true, maybe not.
I choose to look at it like yourself, in that the employes and management had a good working relationship, and most everyone had a hand on what it took to make things work for the long haul. Now, it's immediate gratification, and don't worry about the long haul.
I've seen, as well as yourself no doubt, cooperation works, greed and "me, me, me" don't, whether it's labour or management.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this, or am I, and possibly Doc wrong! One of the things that brought me to these sites that Doc started was the freedom to voice your thoughts and opinions and engage with different view points, and not get banned or ostracized. Huh, I like that word, "OSTRACIZED", could be a spa for ostriches. eh?

John, I have no experience with unions, and only base my opinions on what I read and a few observations. (Unions are few and far between in North Carolina.)

Some reasons I think they have been detrimental are:

I read an article about union crane operators somewhere in the North East. The unions would not let cranes operate unless a licensed electrician was on site. The crane operators lunch hour was from 11 am until noon. The electrician's lunch hour was from noon to 1 pm, so the person paying the bill for the crane had to pay for 8 hours, but only received 7 hours of actual crane work.

Now I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but even I can see this sucks.

Another example: I sent some computer operators to a customer site in Detroit. Remember, we don't have unions and are not familiar with who does what in a union shop. I have always instructed my employees that if you see something that needs doing, go do it.

Well, one of my operators needed to make a copy of some material he brought with him. He was standing at the copier making the copies and a supervisor chewed him out because only secretaries were supposed to operate copiers. He was told where to put the material to be copied, and once it was copied, he could pick it up. There were no secretaries working at night, so he would have to have waited overnight for a few copies. Needless to say my employee was dumbfounded as to what to do. He ended up telling the supervisor that he would do as told next time, but for now, he would take the copies he already made with him.

Fortunately, there were no other exchanges between the two, but here again, to a non-union person, this is silly.

One last example: two electricians were working in the ceiling outside of my office in Raleigh. I suspect they were in a union, but did not verify it.

One employee was on top of an 8 foot ladder with about half of his body up in the suspended ceiling. He asks the person working with him to hand him a tool. The other person replied that he was an electrician, not an electricians helper, and he could get his own ^(*$%) tool. So, the electrician on the ladder had to climb down the ladder, get his tool, then climb back up the ladder. Meanwhile, the other person just stands there looking very bored.

Again, I don't know for sure that these two electricians were in a union, but they fit the stereotype I have about unions.

Bob

Bob, You're absolutely right, that's simply ridiculous. I can see those examples actually happening. In mind, that's total abuse of the system. And those idiots likely got away with that on a daily basis. Luckily, nothing that extreme went on at my location.

I had picked up a full load of recliners in Ecru Mississippi a few months ago. Non-union shop. 3 guys in their early 20's loaded my truck, a 53' dryvan, in close to half an hour, using nothing but but 2 wheel hand trucks. They were all friendly, and seemed happy with their jobs. Two days later, I'm in Pennslyvania or Maryland, can't remember which. Union shop, took 5 hours for the crabby, unfriendly, pieces of meat to unload me with powered forklifts. Cost me a 600 mile run, because I couldn't pick up my next load on time. Think I got an explanation, let alone an apology? Nope. That's just another abuse of the system, and THAT particular union local was to blame.
What a screwed up set of affairs this has all become. Thanks for the comeback Bob

johnday said:

At the DuPont plant near you, the unions would have said at the other plants, it was because they were unionized, that DuPont treated their workers fairly. Could be true, maybe not.

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Yes indeed I believe that is a true statement John. The DuPont employees benefited from the other plants being Unionized. Another end result is now that the majority of the other plants have moved out of the area, starting hourly wages are now lower. But folks are still knocking down the doors hoping to get a job there.

There has to be a way to reward the conscientious, go getter type of worker in the union. So that the slugs who just want to do their job do not feel so mighty that they can never be disciplined or paid less for the lack of incentive.

Like in John's example, that guys slow work ethic cost you dollars. Spread that around our whole economy and it's costing all of us for guys n gals with union jobs to barely do enough to just get the job done at whatever pace they choose. It has a domino effect ....but those union workers could care less.
How could we make them care and understand what they do affects other peoples paychecks and the economy overall? I guess we would have to come up with a way to hit em where they notice it, in their paychecks. I know, I know ....that will never fly with the unions.

I worked tons of union jobs until I was in my late twenties. I've been through arbritrations and seen how the unions barely even work for the members any more. In my case I ended up running my own arbritration (and became the highest paid "clerk" in the company) because the union's lawyer was useless.

I remember being told by the electricians union that I wasn't allowed to plug a computer into the electrical outlet or network jack because that was their job. I think I did it anyways and probably laughed at them when they complained.

The time for unions is long gone. If a company wants good hard working employees they will pay for them. All unions do is protect slackers and the unmotivated.

PBinWA said:

All unions do is protect slackers and the unmotivated.

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Another saying we had,"90% of your time, is spent on 10% of the membership". Seemed almost everyday, the same 10% had a new whine about how badly they were being treated by the company. Won't deny it, won't even try to. If, those 10% hadn't monopolized our time, would have read the contract, much less understand it, and had any kind of ethics other than themselves, then where I was would have been a much better workplace.
Now, some complaints are real, and well founded. I managed to get embroiled in a couple discrimination cases over the years. Were they real? YES they were. But like PB said about the unions lawyers, in our cases we lost in a court of law.
In the old days, unions could police themselves, and deal with the bad actors. Now? Forget it. If you happen to say something one of the poor mistreated dears don't like, all they have to do is get on the phone to their personal problem solver at the local, you're getting your ass chewed.
I worked 2 years in a non-union job just recently. I actually liked the idea of being responsible for my own performance, able to make my own decisions, etc.
Today, the unions themselves need to look back as from where they came. And maybe go back to the "right" way of doings. In other words, what's good for all, and screw the slackers.
Why does all this sound like our modern society? Read that 10% as "special interest" groups, lobbyists, etc. Then is there really much difference?
A question, what does it all really come down to? I think I know the answer, but what about you guys?

I agree with ALOT that's been said. I presently work a union job, and the most use I see for the union is to keep deadbeats employed. There are dozens of people emlpoyed there who could not hold a non-union job in this area. I have even been scolded for doing more than my job description states, even though it was to the benefit of personel safety for all involved.. I will be retiring from that job in the near future, and will work elsewhere to keep occupied, but I will never hold another union job. The unions have really lost the meaning, haven't they?