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Old 09-12-2008, 12:12 PM
rangerdave rangerdave is offline
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Default Help I broke my tractor in half!!!

Hello, I have an Antonio Carraro TRX 8400 68 HP tractor. It broke in half on me while I was lifting the front end off the ground to place some jack stands under and do some maintenance.

I am looking for any information out there about possible manufacturing defects in the frame...

There was no rear implement on at the time of the failure either...

Thank you for any assistance you can give me.
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Old 09-12-2008, 01:27 PM
Mith Mith is offline
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Hi Dave, sorry to hear of your bad luck.

Maybe you could take a couple steps back and take some pictures showing the position of the break.
In the second picture it kinda looks like there are some bolts missing. Seems like an odd break, especially since it occurred when the tractor wasnt under load.
I'm assuming it isnt under warranty

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Old 09-12-2008, 04:44 PM
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Welcome to NTT Dave. That's a nasty break. I don't think I've heard of another member here that has an Antonio Carraro, but I could be wrong. If there are any guests lurking that has one, maybe they'll join in.
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Old 09-12-2008, 05:58 PM
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Welcome. That IS a nasty break.

Where did you position the jack when you were lifting the tractor?
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Old 09-12-2008, 06:24 PM
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Looks like the ears where the bolts threaded into broke off??? NO place on that tractor that a jack should have done that! I would definitely contact the importer about this one. It must have already been fractured & weakened before you jacked her up.
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Old 09-12-2008, 08:19 PM
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Hey Dave! What a first post. Sorry about your luck. Like others said that is one nasty break. Worst I've ever seen.
Welcome to net tractor talk.
Enjoy and post often.
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Old 09-12-2008, 10:23 PM
Jim Lockes Jim Lockes is offline
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Hi Dave
What a rotten brake. No pun intended. I looked on the net for you but couldn't find any history on your tractor. Both pictures look like fresh brakes. No rust showing.
Jim
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Old 09-13-2008, 12:07 AM
rangerdave rangerdave is offline
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Thanks for the comments guys! I've included a picture of the tractor as it looked this winter when I was taking pictures at a few of my jobs. Unfortunately, the tractor is an 9 hour round trip travel away from me to give you a better picture.

This is what the dealer sent to me.... Now imagine it covered with all of the body panels!!! I was only guessing how bad it was... It was much worse in the end... Yes, I think the ears that tore off where the 3 bolts are missing should have been a lot thicker. I was shocked to see that the metal housing is barely thicker than 1/4 inch in spots!!! I was expecting 1/2 like most every thing I've ever worked with.... But anyway, even my smaller tractors like these Pasquali have thicker frames made of real steel in the center, not cast!!!
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Old 09-13-2008, 04:31 AM
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Welcome Dave.

Ouch! It looks like you took the bolts out before you took the pictures. Correct or were they missing? Were you using a jack to raise it or lifting it with the FEL?

When you get back to the tractor (9 hr trip) take a few more pictures from some different angles if possible.

Good luck with your repairs....can you get it on a trailer?
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Old 09-13-2008, 11:53 AM
Jim Lockes Jim Lockes is offline
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rangerdave
What I found on the net was that the tractor will lift 4600 lbs. Those logs look pretty heavy. Maybe the rough terrain and to big of a load is the problem.
Jim Lockes
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Old 09-13-2008, 02:04 PM
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Am I interpreting the photos correctly?

In the second photo it looks like all the bolts on the bottom edge had fallen out. So when the front of the tractor was lifted, the back didn't lift with it.
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Old 09-13-2008, 03:04 PM
rangerdave rangerdave is offline
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Well, I am planning a trip out to the dealer where it has been sitting for the past FEW months on Monday... I will take more pictures and try and get a shard of metal so that I can send it out to an independent 3rd party for testing....

We transported it on my friends ramp truck.

The failure occured when I was lifting the front end with the loader to perform some maintinence. I had raised the front end off of the ground to secure some jacks underneath, but before I could do so, there was a horrible groan, the whole tractor just sagged into a pool of hydraulic fluid... I was standing to the side of the tractor working the control lever. There were no other implements on the 3pt hitch.

The dealer says the bolts must have been in the frame to have torn the ears out of the rear housing... the bolts must have rattled out during the 4+ Hr trip.

The tractor is supposedly made specifically for rough terrain and difficult work. I have the mid range model of the TRX line at 68 HP.

The photo of the 933 Pasquali is only 30 HP 12 years old and the 462E 42HP Pasquali 7 years old could handle everything that My new 2 year old TRX can do... Those logs only weigh about 500 - 800 Lbs each and are at most 16 ft long. A full twitch of about 4 logs being skidded is less than most farm tractors haul behind them when they are pulling some of these large trailers of hay, rocks or logs....

I traded in the 933 for the newer 462E and I still have it. I bought the TRX because of the rugged dependability of this type of Italian tractor... Having 2 tractors means I can leave one at a long term jobsite leaving the other for quick jobs.
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Old 09-13-2008, 09:56 PM
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How old is the tractor ?? You said you took it to the dealer....warranty ??
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Old 09-13-2008, 10:37 PM
rangerdave rangerdave is offline
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The tractor is 2 years and 9 months old now (received mid January of 2006)... It will have been sitting at the dealers for almost 5 months, and I still don't have a broken parts list and estimate of how much it will cost me to fix... Just a scratch of the head figure of $18,000!!! The warranty was for 2 years.... It seems everything we buy these days seems to break soon after the warranty expires....
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Old 09-14-2008, 09:15 AM
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That is horrible. Just out of warranty. Are they considering bending the rules for you with this extreme kind of failure? Have you been in contact with the main office or their rep here in the states (someone over top of the dealer)?
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Old 09-14-2008, 11:26 AM
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I was doing a little research on the web, and found the primary web site for Pasquali tractors at BCS S.p.A., here: http://www.bcs-ferrari.it/. BCS also manufactures tractors under their own name and Ferrari. Their US distributor is Ferrari Tractors CIE in California, website http://www.ferrari-tractors.com/.

The US distributor for Antonio Carraro (http://www.antoniocarraro.it/) is Antonio Carraro America Inc, also in California, website http://www.acamerica.com/.

Hope this information can help you.

Good luck

Fred
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Old 09-14-2008, 12:21 PM
rangerdave rangerdave is offline
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I had contacted a man at acamerica in hoping to start a dialogue about my situation and here is his reply...

From: Dave Smith
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 6:47 PM
To: bclark@antoniocarraro.com
Subject: Help my tractor broke in half!!!



I have an Antonio Carraro TRX 8400 68 HP tractor with a front end loader. It's 2 years old... I bought it new from a fellow in CA named Eugene Canales whom trucked it out to me.

I was lifting up the front end of the tractor with the front end loader (like I have done with all of my tractors)[Bruce Clark] This method voids the warranty on all tractors that I know of and is usually prohibited in a loaders operation manual to put jacks under the frame to perform maintenance....[Bruce Clark] Floor jacks are recommended when performing such a task I heard a groan and then the whole thing just pop, pop, popped in half in a sickening sag and then a pool of hydraulic oil.... I wasn't even on the tractor when it happened, just standing to the side working the levers.[Bruce Clark] Even though this is not recommended, this should not cause such damage. There must have been another factor involved

I am convinced that this is a manufacturing defect and am not getting much of a response from the company...I知 sorry to hear that you have that opinion. The odds of this being a defect is very remote. The dealer thinks the repair would run about 18,000!!! Oh yeah, the warranty expired a couple of months before this happened too... figures...[Bruce Clark] this would have nothing to do with the cause of the failure

I believe that the casting is defective. [Bruce Clark] Then you should send this part to our office. They then could examine the part. If in their expertise and examination they find it a defect, I知 sure they would help you even if your warranty has expired. On the other hand, be aware that this kind of failure would be very remote. When I looked at how thin the housing walls were, I was shocked. Barely thicker than 1/4 inch in spots. [Bruce Clark] The design is very sufficient

They also skimped on the metal around the threaded bolts that hold it together. [Bruce Clark] Please do not insinuate that there is a design fault or that the company is skimping on metal. Such accusations are very damaging if publicized and would be defended in a court of law. Antonio Carraro Tractors are of the finest quality and their reputation for producing a market leading product with a great reputation is very important to the company. That's where the casting initially failed as well. When the shoulder casting around the bottom bolts went, the rest just went for the ride.[Bruce Clark] I would suggest that you look for wear in that area that would be uncommon. Loose bolts can cause this in tire rims. I would look to for loose or missing bolts to contribute to this failure and not a design flaw.

I'm sure that if the integrity of the metal wasn't compromised by any internal defects and the shoulder metal was a little more substantial, the failure would never have happened.[Bruce Clark] A full investigation then maybe required

I had to bring it back to the dealer for the initial 100 hour servicing and we discovered that the cast metal bumper guard weight had cracked in half...[Bruce Clark] I am a little confused, what dealer was this and where? I had never hit it. This is a 1" thick chunk of metal that protects the engine... We sent it back and the one that the dealer got was ALSO broken... no damage to the box it came in either. Third time was a charm...[Bruce Clark] hmmm

I would like to think that the company received a bad batch of cast iron from one of it's suppliers.... My tractor should not have broken in half under it's own weight.[Bruce Clark] It did not. The only other possibility is that some one vandalized it. [Bruce Clark] Please explain The dealer noted that almost all of the major bolts holding the housings together were not tight and 3 were missing. [Bruce Clark] Dave, this issue is finished. If after 2 years those bolts have become loose and or lost, then of course this explains the failure you experienced. If you allowed operation of this tractor with or without a front loader on it, with loose or missing bolts on the bell housing, you were risking a failure due to neglect and lack of maintenance that could have resulted in causing major harm to the operator. He thinks that they were present at the time of the break though.[Bruce Clark] You stated that 典he dealer noted that almost all of the major bolts holding the housings together were not tight and 3 were missing? Please do not contact our department on this issue. Please do not make statements about flaws in the tractor.

Do you think it is possible that since they are putting bigger and bigger engines on the same frame that was initially designed for (40 - 50 HP tractor) that once you get into a 68 - 84 HP tractor, the chassis is under designed?[Bruce Clark] No. I think that all owners must examine their own tractor for loose bolts.

Any advice, answers, comments appreciated. I got your info from this forum...[Bruce Clark] I went to the forum. I think it would be in all our interest, if you explained that the loose bolts caused this failure after 2 years and not a design or material defect.

I will look for this update on the forum.

http://www.tractorforum.com/showthre...0&pagenumber=2

Well, instead of trying to contact me and talk about my problem, I have been immediately dismissed and told NOT to contact the office about this matter!!!

The thing is, if they could determine that It was vandalism my insurance would cover it!!! Why slam and accuse me of something NO ONE is capable of inspecting... All of the housing bolts are so inaccessible that you have to take everything off in order to inspect all of them. But, it would not be that hard for someone to take a large hand wrench and back the bottom ones out that are accessible. Also, I am not claiming that the bolts were not tight. That was the DEALER!

Vandalism and theft in our neighborhood has been documented and people have been arrested because of it. My property has already been targeted on 3 occasions.

No one working for a living can inspect every single bolt on a tractor before they start it up and work with it every single time!!! Especially the inaccessible ones that are supposed to be designed never to get loose in the first place!!! And when you have no reason to suspect damage AND you are getting ready to perform maintenance!!!

My dealer is the only one in New England and he is a 9 hour round trip from my location... He had experienced too many difficulties in working with acamerica that he (unbeknown to me at the time I dropped it off) quit being a dealer for Carraro.... So I'm sure he is not getting the best response from acamerica either...

He has thrown out an estimate of around $18,000 to repair... I am going to get pictures of my own and see it for the first time tomorrow....

The ONLY other dealer is somewhere in New York and some 15+ Hours away in one direction...
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Old 09-14-2008, 01:14 PM
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Did the bolts (in the second picture of the break) fall out or, did you take them out ?? If they fell out. Looks like the factory would put thread locker on the bolts at the factory. What made you buy that brand tractor ?? I don't know anyone that has that brand. We don't have nor do I know any dealers around me that sells that brand. From the response you got. Looks like you are on your own for the repair.
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Old 09-14-2008, 01:38 PM
rangerdave rangerdave is offline
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The dealer thinks that the bolts were present at the time of the break. He also told me that all of the bolts holding the two housings together were not that tight... I have no idea if they used any kind of thread locker...

I bought the tractor sight unseen... but after owning 3 other Italian tractors of this type, I was convinced of the ruggedness and reliability. After taking a trip where I could see the other three tractor manufacturers of this same type, I was very happy with my decision to go with the Antonio Carraro...

Goldoni/John Deere and Antonio Carraro are the only two large scale importers to the US with any kind of dealership parts/service... The other two manufacturers (Ferrari and Pasquali) only have 1 or 2 importers and no real support dealership...

Any way you slice it, I am probably left on my own...
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Old 09-14-2008, 07:21 PM
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Massey fegurson, kubota,case all make large tractors. I'am not sure I know what you mean about importing large scale tractors to the us. The ones I mentioned above all have large tractors. The state ( here ) buy alot of large massey & new holland & a few JD tractors. If I were looking for a new tractor , I would have never thought about looking for or at a Antonio Carraor tractor. I would have thought JD, NH,MF,ETC,
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