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Old 01-24-2009, 08:49 PM
Mark777 Mark777 is offline
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Default Basic Paint & Body Part l & ll

It has been suggested by some here that we have a place where any NTT member can conveniently locate for help with spray painting and basic body work. I would like to offer my contributions by using a Kubota L2201 as the test subject. It was brought to my shop with a few minor mechanical issues (recently completed) and a major cosmetic repair and repaint.

I’m not going to kid anyone as painting can be extremely fun (at any age), lucrative as a side income, very rewarding and a useful tool to the DIY and professional alike, But it is dangerous, harmful to your immediate environment when not handled correctly and especially unhealthy if you don’t follow the ABC’s of personal protective equipment (PPE). To my knowledge, every single product sold in this country provides a link either on the can, box, tube or cartridge for the MSDS (material safety data sheet). For your own safety and the safety of others, I beg you to please read it.

The attached warning should be read by everyone that paints, wants to paint or do bodywork and paint preparation. It is generic in nature and the simplest I could find in a quote and provided by the “CA Insurance Compensation Board“.

"Spray Painting Safety
Spray painting is a common and effective way to protect and beautify parts, products, vehicles, and buildings. Spray painting allows coverage of large areas with even coats of primer, paint, sealers, and other coatings. However, workers in spray painting operations need to recognize and guard against the hazard associated with spray painting processes.
Many paints, coatings, catalysts, sealers, hardeners, and solvents contain hazardous chemicals. Exposure to chemicals can occur during mixing of the coating, spraying the material, and grinding or sanding it. Even some surface preparation and cleanup solvents can pose a hazard, if not handled properly. As such, workers should avoid using solvents for cleaning paint from hands or skin. They should use water-based cleansers that are meant for personal cleanup.
Hazardous chemicals in coatings and solvents can enter the body several ways. Workers can inhale chemical vapors from spraying, absorb the chemical by skin contact or inject the chemical with high pressure spray painting equipment. Symptoms of overexposure to hazardous chemicals include nausea, rashes, and long term illnesses like asthma, lung cancer, and sensitization (becoming severely allergic to the paint). Before work begins, spray painters should read the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) of the chemical they’ll be using then wear the appropriate personal protective equipment such as safety glasses, a respirator (if medically qualified, properly fit-tested, and trained), gloves or coveralls to protect themselves against its hazards.
As proper ventilation is important when working with paint coatings, a spray booth is an excellent way to remove spray paint vapors and debris from a worker’s breathing zone. Many coatings contain flammable substances that are aerosolized when sprayed through powered equipment and without proper ventilation, such as in a spray booth, these vapors can build up and create an explosion and fire danger. But to provide maximum protection, the spray booth must be properly maintained, including regular cleaning of filters and overspray. And to prevent sparking a flammable substance, smoking and other sources of flame near spray painting operations should be prohibited and tools should be properly rated and grounded for work in a spray painting area.
Because much of the equipment used for spray painting and surface preparation uses compressed air, workers should be aware that noise can be a risk, so should wear hearing protection when working with air powered tools. Grinding and sanding equipment not only generates noise, they also create fine dust particles so, workers should be advised to use safety glasses and a dust mask or a respirator, if required and qualified to do so.
Consider ergonomics when spraying coatings. Often, workers must hold full paint pots and maneuver heavy, awkward objects while spraying. Balanced spray guns that fit comfortably in the hand or using hoists and dollies to move objects can reduce the chance of accidents and injuries. Also, workers should be encouraged to take frequent breaks and stretch often to avoid strains and sprains. If workers can think about safety in and around spray paint operations , they can avoid painting themselves into a hazardous corner.

The above evaluations and/or recommendations are for general guidance only and should not be relied upon for legal compliance purposes. They are based solely on the information provided to us and relate only to those conditions specifically discussed."


I will do my level best to offer up explanations of the basic procedures, essential tools, materials and definitions to help you get started. I will not endorse and specific products but will include the items that have worked for me, are the most cost effective and prove to give the best results (IMO).

I welcome your suggestion, stories, successes and failures that contribute to the building of this thread.

Thanks for reading!

Mark

Last edited by Mark777; 01-26-2009 at 07:12 AM.
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Old 01-24-2009, 09:22 PM
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Default Part ONE

Part One: Body Work & Primer

I believe the best place to start when getting ready to paint anything…is doing the basic body work. After all, the best painting professional in the world will have poor to mediocre results if the surface he’s painting isn’t straight.



*1- The first (2) pictures are most of the basic materials necessary to apply, sand, and repair the area to the point just before primer is applied. It (the picture) includes (L-R) a broken/used wooden paint stick, a slapper used for popping the loaded sand paper which keeps it clean, sharp and extends the useable life of the paper, a peace of 40 grit and 80 grit PSA strap sand paper (2 ¾”x16 ½”), 3 assorted rubber blocks, 1- 16” long board (commonly referred to as ‘Idiot Stick’) two rolls of DA sand paper 80 and 180 grit and, finally, a pile of assorted used sand paper that I use to clean off the surface of very sticky and freshly applied filler.
MATERIALS
BODY FILLER
*I have every conceivable air tool for body and paint work that any man could ever ask for…but I still find the soft rubber blocks and idiot stick faster, truer in relation to metal surfaces and easier to use.

*2- These second pictures shows the damaged area that normally you could ’bump’ out from the underside. In this instance it’s not possible as it’s under two factory pinch welds where a dolly and hammer are useless and the dent is relatively shallow. It has been scuffed completely clean with used 40 grit paper in order for the best possible adhesion for a liberal pass of automotive body filler. The masking tape is there to prevent filler slobber getting into areas that are already primed, and especially the factory pinch weld seam.
Damaged Area (outside)
Inside shop

*3- Applying the filler. At 72°, you have approximately 2 - 3 full minutes to apply the filler to the damaged area before it hardens. I’ve found it best to determine the amount necessary, remove any excess and to make two passes, one in one direction and one more in the opposite direction. You will be tempted to do it a few more times but when you do, chances are very likely you will pull too much away from the deeper part of the damage and for sure, create air bubbles, which turn into pin holes during sanding.
Filler Applied

From this point on, I’ll be using guide coat (guide-coating) as I always do. Sharpe’s glossary of paint terminology defines this much better than I can:
GUIDE COAT:
A mist coat of a different color, usually primer, to aid in getting a panel sanded straight. A dry contrasting color applied to prime prior to sanding. This coat remains in the low areas and imperfections during the sanding process. When removed, imperfections are eliminated.



*4- This picture (I hope) shows my first few sanding passes in the traditional “X” or cross sanding pattern. Always sand in the X pattern working from the straight metal backwards to the center of the filled damaged area. The outer edges are your guide and allow you to ’feel’ the differences in the height of the material versus the flatness of the unaffected (or undamaged) surrounding metal. Most (+/- 90%) of the filler will end up on the floor.
*Determining when it’s flat, or if it’s flat, is absolutely and without a doubt, the single and most difficult part of body work to learn. There isn’t a Master Automotive Technician on Earth that can teach you how to do this…It is a process you learn by trial and error. My one and only suggestion is to use your hand and fingers inside a soft cotton glove or flat on a clean terry cloth towel to ’FEEL’ and determine the differences in the two areas (metal and filler).
Blocked 40 grit

*5- This picture shows the area blocked down slightly with the 80 grit strap paper. It also shows a light mist of guide coat (I do this between every grit all the way up to 180 before final priming). The 1 ½” masking tape is there for two reasons, the first to protect the final sanded hood and the second to cover the pinch weld line and prevent any filler creeping in there. It takes a long time to clean out these crevices to make the final coat look up to industry standards (and usually better).
Blocked 80 grit
*6- A little better angle showing the guide coat, tape and finished blocking with 80 grit.
80 grit finished

*7- Almost done blocking with the 180 grit. Notice the cross sanding scratches, which are the tattle tale of imperfections shown by the guide coating! I have worked my way towards the middle of the damage and….
Sand Scratches
Picture Two

*8- Done! Start to finish was about 45 minutes. Ready for final prime - Done With the edges blown off and a light sanding where the tape met the guide coat overspray, I’ll be priming tomorrow. Dollars to dough-nuts says it’s about 98% acceptable, but I’ll prime and, Yep, one more time, fog on a little guide coat just in case I find a tiny scratch or two. If that’s the case (and almost always is) I’ll provide pictures and the process on how to apply and feather out glazing putty. Guess we’ll call that “Part Two” if you folks are interested in continuing?

Oh, and please let me know if I’m going too fast, slow or not explaining everything well enough!

Thanks for looking ,
Mark

Last edited by Mark777; 01-25-2009 at 06:02 PM.
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Old 01-25-2009, 04:25 AM
Mith Mith is offline
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Very interesting Mark, thanks for posting.
I do have some questions regarding the filler. How are you applying it, with the plastic plates in the 'filler' picture presumably? How do you get the filler to curve around the outside edge of the hood (with a straight edge on the plastic plate I would have thought it would cut the corner if you see what I mean), overapply and sand until its right?
The other thing is, is it OK to apply the filler over the paint that is lift in the low spot, or is it advisable to sand that paint out to get the filler to adhere.


On a side note, I dont know if you have ever used filler to smooth over a hole or if you weld patches. If you do you use the filler, what do you use as a matrix to get the filler to adhere to? I have heard that aluminum mesh is the way to go?
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Old 01-25-2009, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Mith View Post
..... How are you applying it, with the plastic plates in the 'filler' picture presumably?
.....How do you get the filler to curve around the outside edge of the hood....
The other thing is, is it OK to apply the filler over the paint that is lift in the low spot, or is it advisable to sand that paint out to get the filler to adhere.


On a side note, I dont know if you have ever used filler to smooth over a hole or if you weld patches. If you do you use the filler, what do you use as a matrix to get the filler to adhere to? I have heard that aluminum mesh is the way to go?
Mith,

Yes, I’m applying the filler with the two (tan and small green) flexable spreaders. They are inexpensive, disposable and soft enough to cut with large scissors to duplicate a negative of the compound curves and radiouses. This brand of filler (in the MATERIALS picture) isn’t cheap and I often find and use the best, least expensive materials that work, but when it comes to good fillers I don’t skimp on a few bucks. Evercoat brand filler is homogenized, very light, sands quickly and effortlessly and flexable with thin steel panels when applied correctly.

Filler applied over paint has always been a sign that the body man or shop is lazy and risks the chance that the material will crack, break loose and fall off. So, I never do…but really, if you’ve ever dropped fresh filler on a dirty, oily floor, you have to get a hammer to knock it loose. These newer ultra-light fillers will not come off, even with aircraft qualifty stripper or sand blaster. They have to be ground away with a grinder or DA sander.

I weld patches from the reverse side of the holes, even if I have to enlarge the hole to accommodate a bigger patch. If the panel can’t be backed up with new metal then it needs to be replaced or reproduced. There are some shops that cater to used car lots and they have applied rigid urethane foam (and sometimes duct tape!) to back up freshly applied body filler. Those types of repairs are only temporary under the best conditions…and if a customer ask me to do this I politely tell him no and take it somewhere else.
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Old 01-25-2009, 10:48 AM
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Excellent thread Mark. THANKS!!!!! Rep ooints for you!
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Old 01-25-2009, 11:54 AM
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Thanks Mark, great thread!
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Old 01-25-2009, 01:00 PM
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Thanks Mark.
Looking back I see that you answered my second question in your first post, that'll teach me for trying to think so soon after getting up!

So on the panel replacement you cut the hole out and fit a patch inside the hole, butt welding around the edge of the patch?
I could start asking all sort of questions about patch welding but this is probably the wrong thread.

By the looks of things you are sanding dry. Is 180 grit the final paper you use, or do you go over with something finer after the first coat of primer? (I might be jumping ahead here).

BTW, please do continue. I need to interrogate you on compressors some time
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Old 01-25-2009, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Mith View Post
Thanks Mark.


So on the panel replacement you cut the hole out and fit a patch inside the hole, butt welding around the edge of the patch?


By the looks of things you are sanding dry. Is 180 grit the final paper you use, or do you go over with something finer after the first coat of primer? (I might be jumping ahead here).

BTW, please do continue. I need to interrogate you on compressors some time
Jim,

Yes, exactly! I use .023” wire with Argon-CO2 mix. The *MIG gas and wire size keep the panel repair at a minimum of distortion and matching the metal thickness means IF I have to, I can grind and dolly the repair where it’s almost undetectable.
(*Girly Welder )

180 grit is what I use before primer. It is the finest grit that promotes the best adhesion for the primer. I then guide coat and wet sand with 400 wet-or-dry unless it’s too cold (and it’s been very cold here) and then I use 320 grit dry for finish sanding before the top coat (paint) is applied.

I have discovered that the member interaction after my posts are much more educational and a better learning tool for everyone (including me).
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Old 01-25-2009, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
The *MIG (*Girly Welder )
I forgot I said that!
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Old 01-26-2009, 06:56 AM
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Default Part Two: Paint Hardeners, Reducers & Jambing

Part Two

I should have included the type of primer and reducer I used on the top side of all the sheet metal. This is Matrix Systems Primer and Reducer - that uses no hardener. It is very user friendly and like most products gives the reduction rate and other information on the side - Instructions.

I don’t know about you but I’m a little tired of looking at the same primer/guide coat/ hood pictures! So, I decided it’s time to shoot a little paint and explain what, how and why I’m using two incompatible chemical paints that absolutely hate each other. In fact they hate each other so bad that when they do (chemical) battle, the guy on the bottom usually is the looser. It will lift, crack, bubble and blister…and eventually fall off the very first time it’s washed and especially with a power washer. And the main reason is these oil base paints don’t have any known catalyst that will rapidly cure the paint…or do they??

Going to let you guys in on a BIG secret, and it’s only a secret because none of the retail stores like True Value, Ace Hardware, Home Depot, Lowes and all others don’t know about this. If you ask, “Do You Have a Hardener For This?? The answer is a variation of, but always the same …like NO, Never heard of it, They don’t make nothing’ like it, or you get a blank stare. The only company that I know of that sells a hardener for their product is Valspar. And if you’ve been to Tractor Supply, visited their paint isle, selected their BPS or Restoration Series Tractor & Implement paint, then you probably noticed the little can (8 oz.) of hardener…Which leads me to explain the second part of my discovery.

I’ve used Valspar products for about four years and my only complaint is it’s lack of UV screeners. They WILL fade when left exposed to the sunlight and other outside elements and it leads to disappointments when you’ve figured the hours you spend making it your one personal beauty. So, I emailed the product support division of Valspar, expressed my concerns, disappointments and asked “Why Don’t You Use sufficient UV screener - or at least make a good clear coat to stop the deterioration from the effects of outside exposure?? It was obvious that the person I was speaking with hadn’t a clue, was a paint fleet product salesman and finally referred me to their on sight chemist. His answer was - to keep the product affordable and the paint reasonably user friendly we decided that the addition of sophisticated and expensive chemicals were unnecessary. OK, bottom line is price. While I had him on the phone I asked him one last question, “Can I use your hardener in other oil base paints?? He said; NO, absolutely not and then he giggled! WTH?? So, I asked him the same question only differently phrased, If I buy your hardener and add it to any other brand of oil base paint will it work??” This time I got a good three minutes of what might happen, like separation, lack of adhesion, incompatibility and so on and so forth, but he would sometimes giggle and finally said “If You Try This, You’ll See Just How Good Our Product Really Is!). I thanked him and hung up the phone…and then asked myself, “Did this guy just say it WILL work?? “ Yeah, I think he did and so I bought some paint from True Value added the Valspar hardener and yep, it does work and works excellent too! I have since learned that most all acrylic enamel hardeners will work in oil base paints.

The costs of a high line paint (I’m using PPG) that included 2 quarts of “Kubota Orange”, 2 quarts of “Kubota Blue”, 1 Gallon of medium Reducer and a pint of DXR-80 hardener totaled $297.40. The cost of ‘matched color’ oil base quart of enamel from the hardware store is $10.25, the pint of hardener $10.95 and another $9.70 for a gallon of Naphtha.

The following pictures show the products, upside down pieces that have been washed with Naphtha and maroon Scotch-Brite, and various stages of paint coverage that have been *Jambed Paint & Hardener. I’ve done this not for show but to prevent rust and encapsulate areas prone to dirt, oil, fuel and other ugly but washable grime’y stuff. The first picture shows the two products that will NOT work together (wrong, they do), and it’s time to remind everyone that this hardener IS highly poisonous and to use PPE (PERSONAL PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT): *The process of shooting (spraying) paint on the undersides or somewhat hidden areas of any project is called “Jambing. Slang really, and coming from the procedure of painting door jambs, window and hinge pillar posts.

Next picture, same stuff but I included the detail gun Gun & Stuff. This gun is a SATA Mini-Jet, very expensive and highly regarded in the paint industry as an instrument quality tool. It’s claim to fame, other than having the sought after SATA badge, is the tremendous transfer efficiency at about 70%. That’s 70% of the spray-able materials that hits the target with only 30% waste (over-spray). This gun is TOTALLY not necessary as many other makers of HVLP detail guns work just fine, much less expensive, provide excellent results and prove to be very user friendly. I bought the Mini-Jet for earlier jobs on motorcycle tanks, side covers, fenders etc. and did a lot of ghost flames, 3 stage paints, scallops and other junk.


Sorry, I don’t have the dexterity to actually shoot paint and take pictures but here are the results of the first tack coat followed by a hiding coat. The first two passes with a paint gun are NOT about making stuff look Purdy! The first ’Tack Coat’ is akin to shooting glue. It’s to promote adhesion to the following coats of paint. The second pass (after flash time) is for hiding. Hiding dissimilar or different colors and making one, solid color. Notice the shadows under the second coat? 2nd Pass

Another pass (on the same pieces) to hide those shadows. White, Yellow and brighter variations (like Orange) have poor hiding capabilities, but going slow and eventually you bury the shadows.
Another Pass

This picture shows the inside of the Kubota fenders Fenders underside . The fenders were shot with rubberized undercoating. I do this to add some flexibility and make it fairly impact resistant to gravel, small stones and other stuff flying around under there. Here are some more of the hood and other sheet metal Dash Cap - Hood underside

And the rest is history! The next segment, the pieces will be set up...and I'll show you how to shoot the top coat if you like.
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Old 01-26-2009, 01:59 PM
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Mark,
Naphtha? Any in particular, will petrol (gas) do?

How do you tell if a particular paint is good? I can tell that you have decided your paints of choice over years of experience, is there any way to tell without shooting some?

Are you planning to do more detail into the paint guns and equipment required? I'd be interested to know about the sizing of compressors and the set up.
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Old 01-26-2009, 02:29 PM
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Yeah Naphtha. It's just a hotter version of mineral spirts (paint thinner). I think it contains MEK or denatured alcohol and evaporates fast in colder weather.

You can (stand in a retail shop) pick up a quart of inexpensive paint, already color matched and compare it to a high end automotive paint. The expensive paint will weigh noticeably more because of the "High Solids" content. These high solids have more pigment and resins than less expensive equivalents. Cheaper paints use more clear vehicle (liquid binder) and much less UV screeners in their ingredients too.

I can. In fact the next batch of pictures and tutorial show my gun, a test panel, paint gun distances and the actual procedures I follow. They are much better as I had the Mrs. shoot the pictures so members can see still shots of how it's done.

I am a little apprehensive about dumping one part after the other…I think if anyone is interested they may be tempted to ‘cut to the chase’ and skip certain parts that are really essential to the process, and ultimately, the outcome. I am also going to include a very good paint glossary “Paint Terminology” authored by Sharpe Manufacturing. Not only does it have the A to Z paint dictionary it also includes topics like shop piping layout, Why HVLP?... etc. Have a look see: http://www.sharpe1.com/sharpe/sharpe...+Terminology#a

I certainly can help you with compressors...but take a look at their link (they have great diagrams)

Mark
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Old 01-28-2009, 01:14 PM
Mith Mith is offline
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So price is a pretty good indication of paint quality then (obviously, but sometimes the most expensive isnt the best), and weight too.
Just about to read the like you posted.
Thanks
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Old 01-28-2009, 09:00 PM
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Mark,
Naphtha? Any in particular, will petrol (gas) do?....

Sorry. I just re-read your post and..... NO - Don't use petrol.

There was a time when the early synthetic enamels were thinned with mineral spirits AND old timers did use gasoline to thin that paint…but nothing I’d recommend with paints manufactured in the last two (or three) decades .
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Old 01-29-2009, 01:42 AM
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Great, informative thread Mark.

I've never done any body work and don't forsee me doing any in the immediate future but I do like to have access to the information, just in case. I still have a hankering for that ol' JD 820 at the farm and it'd make a great project .... if my 91 year old M-I-L ever decides to get rid of it ... NOT. She's had that thing from new and it's likely to still there after we're all long gone.
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Old 01-29-2009, 05:24 AM
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Thanks!

And the thread is here just in case you'd like to try .

I have since completed most of the tractor and re-assembled the sheet metal, rewired and tested everything. I will include those pictures and a few shots of the rotten, now repaired, Kubota ORANGE brush hog.

Mark
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