Trouble in the Frozen North

Ok here goes, my first serious thread. I went out to start the tank yesterday morning. Temps right around 5-10 degrees. Pluged the block heater in for about and hour then went out to start it up. Turned over kinda hard but she fired.

It ran for about 3 minutes, then all of a sudden I started getting some white smoke. Tried to increase the fuel but it did no good. About another minute went by an she died.

Tried to get it going againg but no luck. Can't even get a little smoke out of the stack.

I'm thinking fuel is gelled up, but I want your opinions. If that's the case I have to get out the spare fuel filters and the wrenches. Thank's to Jeremy and his friends, getting to the fuel filters is a real treat. The are right behind the loader frame. Jeremy how about leaving some room for those of us with big hands.

It's raining here today so going out to change fuel filters is gonna have to wait for now.

civesnedfield said:

Ok here goes, my first serious thread. I went out to start the tank yesterday morning. Temps right around 5-10 degrees. Pluged the block heater in for about and hour then went out to start it up. Turned over kinda hard but she fired.

It ran for about 3 minutes, then all of a sudden I started getting some white smoke. Tried to increase the fuel but it did no good. About another minute went by an she died.

Tried to get it going again but no luck. Can't even get a little smoke out of the stack.

I'm thinking fuel is gelled up, but I want your opinions. If that's the case I have to get out the spare fuel filters and the wrenches. Thank's to Jeremy and his friends, getting to the fuel filters is a real treat. The are right behind the loader frame. Jeremy how about leaving some room for those of us with big hands.

It's raining here today so going out to change fuel filters is gonna have to wait for now.

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This doesn't sound good Ed. I'd have felt better if you said the white smoke was there from the start. But appearing after 3-4 minutes and then stalling the engine and it refusing to start again suggests the possibility of a blown head gasket. Time to PM Galen and see what he says.

I sincerely hope I am wrong and that it is just some silly anti-pollution gizmo gone bad. Gelled/crystallized diesel fuel at 5-10 degrees? I suppose it's possible, but seems it would take a temperature a bit lower than that.

Dougster

Good luck with it Ed. I'll be watching but have no useful suggestion.

But I do have a question, can't fuel jel at any temp? I thought age caused the jelling and it could clog your fuel lines and carb no matter the temperature.

Dougster said:

This doesn't sound good Ed. I'd have felt better if you said the white smoke was there from the start. But appearing after 3-4 minutes and then stalling the engine and it refusing to start again suggests the possibility of a blown head gasket. Time to PM Galen and see what he says.

I sincerely hope I am wrong and that it is just some silly anti-pollution gizmo gone bad. Gelled/crystallized diesel fuel at 5-10 degrees? I suppose it's possible, but seems it would take a temperature a bit lower than that.

Dougster

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Way to make me feel good Doug. I don't think a head gasket is it. The white smoke after a couple of minutes was similar to cold stacking. It almost seemed as if the KSB had kicked out prematurly. I'm thinking it is not starting now due to lack of fuel. I won't know until I get the filters off. Just in case I'll check to see if there is any water in the crank case that will be the sure sign of head gasket issues.
I would like to see what Galen thinks. Maybe he will check in some time today.

Ed

Doc said:

Good luck with it Ed. I'll be watching but have no useful suggestion.

But I do have a question, can't fuel jel at any temp? I thought age caused the jelling and it could clog your fuel lines and carb no matter the temperature.

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I do know that the cold will do it. I dopn't know about age but it is possible. Maybe I can put this over in the prayers fourm too.
Any little bit of help will do.

civesnedfield said:

Way to make me feel good Doug. I don't think a head gasket is it. The white smoke after a couple of minutes was similar to cold stacking. It almost seemed as if the KSB had kicked out prematurly. I'm thinking it is not starting now due to lack of fuel. I won't know until I get the filters off. Just in case I'll check to see if there is any water in the crank case that will be the sure sign of head gasket issues. I would like to see what Galen thinks. Maybe he will check in some time today.
Ed

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Not trying to make you feel good or bad... ...just trying to pinpoint the likely problem based on your own words. I don't have one of them buggy KSB gizmos on my TYM-built Mahindra, so I am clueless about how to test and/or bypass them.

civesnedfield said:

I do know that the cold will do it. I don't know about age but it is possible. Maybe I can put this over in the prayers forum too. Any little bit of help will do.

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I thought it took about -15 degrees F for automotive-grade diesel fuel to gel or crystalize. In this particular case, I think a few words from Galen might even be more valuable than prayer.

Dougster

Last year I had similar problems with starting then dying along with the white smoke (water?). It was right after it started to get cold and they (the dealer) started selling the ULSD fuel at the high volume dealer I go for fuel (as do all the real diesel operators and school buses). To make a long story short (I ranted and raved at another not to be mentionned tractor site about this last year) it turned out to be gelled diesel. The "additive mix" coming from the distributors to my area was not properly formulated for temperatures below 17 degrees F. I have been using Power Service (White Bottle) as recommended for warm and/or cold weather ever since. Another good additive is made by Howes, but I have not tried it yet. My fuel dealer is adding an almost 50% kerosene mix to their ULSD due to their distrust over the refinery/distributor "mix" this year which has really jacked up the prices to ~$3.65/G . Jay

PS: With this last slop event I discovered how important it is to have your fuel cap's air vent ice free. Hopefully it is a gelled fuel challenge. I was really surprised when the ULSD gelled at around +17 degrees F, but it was arouund 0 earlier that day. I have been running in single digits temperaturewise this year without fuel problems.

I'd bet $$$ to donuts you gelled up. I have seen big trucks from the southeast do that when they come up here to get hay. And I had nothing to do with the mount kit design... so go blame doug... he is the resident engineer.

rback33 said:

I'd bet $$$ to donuts you gelled up. I have seen big trucks from the southeast do that when they come up here to get hay. And I had nothing to do with the mount kit design... so go blame doug... he is the resident engineer.

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Yea I was all twisted up about the fact that the tractor woudn't start. I forgot about the fact that some how Doug was to blame.
As soon as the weather improves I'll snap some pictures of the fuel and oils filter locations. This is an area that needs some improvement. The dipstick location is nothing to write home about either. It's location is just slightly behind the oil filter and it is a real pain in the %^% to get on and off.

Gonna combine a few answers here due to slow connection speed.


I know that you were just adding thoughts Doug. I did check the oil again and no water there so I do feel a little better. I do believe it is a feul issue. Just not sure, if it is gelled, water in the fuel, maybe the shut off selnoid or maybe the KSB. I'm gonna wait till the rain stops and the temp goes up a bit before I start messing with it.


Jay:

Yes I do use additives. Been using Howse for as long as I can remember. So maybe my issue is water related

Ed

jbrumberg said:

The "additive mix" coming from the distributors to my area was not properly formulated for temperatures below 17 degrees F. {snip!} Hopefully it is a gelled fuel challenge. I was really surprised when the ULSD gelled at around +17 degrees F, but it was around 0 earlier that day. I have been running in single digits temperaturewise this year without fuel problems.

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This does make me think back to all you (Edster) have been saying about the ULSD fuel-related issues up there within the arctic circle. What is supposed to be sometimes ain't! I sincerely hope you and Jay are right about this!!! I guess I was just thrown by the fact that you hadn't reported any cold weather-related problems to date. In fact, I was a little bit shocked at that fact.

rback33 said:

And I had nothing to do with the mount kit design... so go blame doug... he is the resident engineer.

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Once again, that Kansas Loader Kid fails to take the responsibility KMW pays him so handsomely to accept! And if you think the interference problems are bad on the 4530, you should own a 4110 with the FEL front support! Jeremy really made things difficult on that one!!!

Dougster

civesnedfield said:

Yea I was all twisted up about the fact that the tractor woudn't start. I forgot about the fact that some how Doug was to blame.
As soon as the weather improves I'll snap some pictures of the fuel and oils filter locations. This is an area that needs some improvement. The dipstick location is nothing to write home about either. It's location is just slightly behind the oil filter and it is a real pain in the %^% to get on and off.

Gonna combine a few answers here due to slow connection speed.


I know that you were just adding thoughts Doug. I did check the oil again and no water there so I do feel a little better. I do believe it is a feul issue. Just not sure, if it is gelled, water in the fuel, maybe the shut off selnoid or maybe the KSB. I'm gonna wait till the rain stops and the temp goes up a bit before I start messing with it.


Jay:

Yes I do use additives. Been using Howse for as long as I can remember. So maybe my issue is water related

Ed

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Now, it does no good at all to blame the old Dougster. That ain't gonna get the TANK running again! Climb down off that telephone pole with your computer and give 'ur another shot. The weather down here in Taxachusetts is quite warm today. This rainy wet warm weather blast must be coming your way too I would imagine (Jay could tell you for sure!). Get out a couple space heaters as well and let's find out if it's gelled/crystalized/water-saturated fuel after all.

Dougster said:

Now, it does no good at all to blame the old Dougster. That ain't gonna get the TANK running again!

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Maybe not but I did feel better for a moment.

Ed

gelled fuel

I think you are probably correct about the fuel being gelled, at least that would be the first avenue I would go down. Napa stores in my area sell a product called Power Service Diesel 911 which will ungel the fuel system if it is gelled. I would get some and add it to the fuel according to the directions and also lower the filter bowls and add some there. Let it set for a while and then bleed the fuel filters according to your owners manual. Hopefully this will work and let us know the results.

GLAWALL said:

I think you are probably correct about the fuel being gelled, at least that would be the first avenue I would go down. Napa stores in my area sell a product called Power Service Diesel 911 which will ungel the fuel system if it is gelled. I would get some and add it to the fuel according to the directions and also lower the filter bowls and add some there. Let it set for a while and then bleed the fuel filters according to your owners manual. Hopefully this will work and let us know the results.

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Thanks Galen. I did go out and get some 911 yesterday. I have already added it to the fuel tank. Just waiting for the weather to cooperate a little before I change out the fuel filters and add some 911 to thefuel bowls.


Ed

Couple of comments:

If that fuel in the filter is not yet blended with 911 I would dump it in a jar, set it outside, and see if it gells.

If you have a compression release, by all means use it for initially cranking the engine - just in case this really is the head gasket and there is water in a cylinder.

civesnedfield said:

Maybe not but I did feel better for a moment.
Ed

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Glad I could help.

Dougster

Well I went out and braved the elements. I pulled both fuel filters. Nothing gelled up here. Put two new filters in and filled the fuel bowls 1/2 with 911 and 1/2 with diesel fuel.

Here's a question for Galen. While I had the filters off I opened the fuel valve at the tank just to make sure I had fuel flow. How fast should fuel be comming down into the Primary. What I saw seemed a little slow for the size of the fuel line, but it does go thru a banjo fitting.

Here comes the RANT. No engineer or designer should be able to design any piece of equipment unless they have worked on it. Let's just say changing fuel filters on a 4530 with a loader requires at least one more hand than you have. As far as accessing banjo bolts to get the air out of the system, you need to be a contortionist.

Ok RANT over. Got the new filters in, lines purged, still can't get it runing. I'm thinking fuel cut off selnoid. Galen got a picture of it. I'm guessing but I think I know wher it is, also how would you go about checking one of these?

Tired, smelly(that's what the wife says, I kinda like the smell), and gonna be late for dinner. So it is off to the showers for me. Any ideas would be appreciated.

California not ignoring ya. No gelling here, and I do not have a compression release that I know of.

Ed

4530 QUESTIONS

OK, I'm glad you checked the fuel flow at the line as that was the next step and it sounds like you have some restriction there. Drain the fuel tank and pull the petcock out of the the tank. There is a screen strainer on it that may be plugged with trash. Try to get any trash in the tank flushed out. It sounds as if this may be your problem as there should be a good stream of fuel at that point. Also check the strainer that comes out of the tank. Mahindra had a update on that and there should be a 2" long strainer on the petcock, and if there isn't then there is a updated petcoch and strainer for it. Let us know what you find.

Ed, i'm wondering how you made out? It definitely sounds like your tractor's fuel has gelled. Generally this is going to be in the fuel lines first. Obviously, a small amount of fuel in a 1/4 inch line is going to gel before a large amount in the fuel tank. I have heard good things about the 911 treatment. I've not had real life experience with it, but it is supposed to actually eat through the waxy build-up that clogs your lines when they gel. Unfortunately........ you may end up having to disconnect your fuel lines and blow them out with compressed air. I think you have headed in the right direction by adding 911 to the filter and tank. I'd suggest putting a battery charger on it (if possible) and cranking her over in an attempt to get the 911 circulating through the system. I ALWAYS add PS fuel treatment to my diesel in the winter..... no matter what the idiots on TBN say ! Its cheap insurance !!

Ed,
Just to be on the safe side like California and Dougster mentioned about a blown head gasket, check you water level to see if it is lower than usual. I am sure it is easier to check then the %&^&$*!@#) engineered dip stick. My dipstick is awkward to reach also.
hugs, Brandi