CJ-4 Oil NOT to be used in RTV...??

geohorn

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I haven't looked to see what is sold in all the stores in my area but I was surprised to read in the WSM for the RTV-X900/RTV-X1140 on page G-11 where it states: "The CJ-4 Engine Oil is intended for DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) type engines and cannot be used in this vehicle."
On page G-8 it specifies under "Engine Oil: CF or higher".
The Chevron Delo-400 15W40 oil I used for the last oil change is "CK-4" and states on the container "Meets requirements for CJ-4 and prior" (words to that effect).
The service classifications of oil descend thru the alphabet has been my understanding and that subsequent classifications always met prior requirements. So I am wondering if anyone else is noticing what is available locally.... and what they are using in their equipment. (or is anyone paying attention to this at all.)

(I have also been using the CK4 in my M4700 tractor which is a non DPF engine, in fact it's a non-emissions engine made in 1996. It's Owners Manual specifies oil meeting CC or CD.)

Edit: Continuing thought on this at 3 AM leads me to wonder if I shouldn't just go to bed and get some sleep. I wonder if that warning against CJ-4 oil is perhaps only for engines which have EGR, as the page G-11 chart also addresses "with or without external EGR" and states that engines with external EGR cannot use CF-4, CG-4 or CH-4 oils but that they can use CF or Cl-4.

Still, the warning against using CJ-4 "in this engine" seems odd.
 
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aurthuritis

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good info but i wonder if the recommendations are based on emissions and not anything due to lubrication or cooling of the engine components?????? what you think???
 
From OP above:
"The service classifications of oil descend thru the alphabet has been my understanding and that subsequent classifications always met prior requirements."

I agree with the above statement. The later alphabet letters always have to meet the performance of the earlier alphabet letters, plus whatever improvements are built into the new specification. I do not understand Kubota's comments.

Lee
 

geohorn

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The 2018 Roxor uses CJ4 synthetic in the turbodiesel m2DICR 62 hp engine.

I love you just like everyone else and love your comments... but just how does that info apply to or help a RTV owner?

It is a puzzle why that oil is forbidden to RTV owners, especially as regards the sequential-approval nature of the oil specifications system. It's a puzzle. (But I'll make certain NOT to use any.)
 

bordercollie

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(I have also been using the CK4 in my M4700 tractor which is a non DPF engine, in fact it's a non-emissions engine made in 1996.

Geohorn in response to your comment "... but just how does that info apply to or help a RTV owner?" - It doesn't help them anymore than the above quoted comment of yours.... bordercollie
 

geohorn

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Geohorn in response to your comment "... but just how does that info apply to or help a RTV owner?" - It doesn't help them anymore than the above quoted comment of yours.... bordercollie

I didn't mean to put you on the defensive.
Perhaps if you didn't take that sentence out-of-context … it might be more understandable.
I haven't looked to see what is sold in all the stores in my area but I was surprised to read in the WSM for the RTV-X900/RTV-X1140 on page G-11 where it states: "The CJ-4 Engine Oil is intended for DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) type engines and cannot be used in this vehicle."
On page G-8 it specifies under "Engine Oil: CF or higher".
The Chevron Delo-400 15W40 oil I used for the last oil change is "CK-4" and states on the container "Meets requirements for CJ-4 and prior" (words to that effect).
The service classifications of oil descend thru the alphabet has been my understanding and that subsequent classifications always met prior requirements. So I am wondering if anyone else is noticing what is available locally.... and what they are using in their equipment. (or is anyone paying attention to this at all.)

(I have also been using the CK4 in my M4700 tractor which is a non DPF engine, in fact it's a non-emissions engine made in 1996. It's Owners Manual specifies oil meeting CC or CD.)

Edit: Continuing thought on this at 3 AM leads me to wonder if I shouldn't just go to bed and get some sleep. I wonder if that warning against CJ-4 oil is perhaps only for engines which have EGR, as the page G-11 chart also addresses "with or without external EGR" and states that engines with external EGR cannot use CF-4, CG-4 or CH-4 oils but that they can use CF or Cl-4.

Still, the warning against using CJ-4 "in this engine" seems odd.



This thread is about Kubtoa prohibiting CJ-4 oil in one of their engines. Further investigation suggests the CJ-4 oil prohibition is applicable to Kubota non-emission/non-DPF engines. My Kubota M4700 is a Kubota-non-emissions/non-DPF engine. No prohibition against using CJ-4 oil in THAT Kubota engine is inconsistent with a prohibition against using that oil in the non-emissions-Kubota RTV engine.

Does that help you understand the Kubtoa M4700 relevance versus the non-relevance of a Mahindra Roxor engine which presumably mentions it not (or perhaps is a DPF engine for which the oil is intended?)
Perhaps when you posted you were merely being conversational...or perhaps you knew something that might make it relevant and only failed to mention that... In either case, my response was not intended to put you on the defensive but merely to redirect the conversation to the question at-hand... and which is why my lead-in comment exists "I love you just like everyone else and love your comments... but just how does that info apply to or help a RTV owner?"
(My apology if that offended you.)
 
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valiant8086

New member
So we don't really know the answer here? We've been putting Rotella 15w40 conventional in our RTVX1120d, but I want to change it to 5w30 synthetic something. It doesn't start very well, I wonder if a thinner will help create more heat by permitting a freer, faster crank.
 

aurthuritis

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So we don't really know the answer here? We've been putting Rotella 15w40 conventional in our RTVX1120d, but I want to change it to 5w30 synthetic something. It doesn't start very well, I wonder if a thinner will help create more heat by permitting a freer, faster crank.

i wouldn't stray from the temp viscosity recommendations from Kubota. if your engine isn't turning fast enough i would check the battery and starter and all of the grounds and contacts. if you need heat then use the glow plugs.
 

valiant8086

New member
Thanks. The manual does say we can use 5w30 in the winter. So saying, will it hurt any to use it in the summer? Especially given we're not likely to change it more than once a year, don't put that many hours on it. So if we changed it in the winter, it would still have 5w30 in it through the next summer anyway. A friend with the RTVX1100C RL has one that they use 5w30 in, and it starts a whole lot faster than ours.

Ours needs 6 or 8 compression strokes even on a 70 degree day and then it smokes and chuggs as if it were cold. When it was new it would always start on a warm day on the very first compression stroke, just like the friend's 1100c does. For ours, using heat does help, but I worry about premature failure of the glow plugs if we have to use them that often. I also have to admit that the starter sounds just as fast as it ever did.

Does anyone know if changing the fuel filter will affect this? I think we're still on the original. We do seem to have pretty close to full power still at top end, though if we didn't we could blame that on the stupid Spark Arestor drain that I broke using a short wrench with one hand and so we can't take it out.

I guess this is sort of barking at a shadow, it does start, it's just not what I'm used to and those glow plugs are probably a real pain to replace if it ever becomes necessary. Would like to never need to use them until temps are in the 50's or below.

Thanks, still getting used to this forum. I have to come check up on it manually, it doesn't appear to be able to email me. I wish that could be fixed.
 

aurthuritis

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Site Supporter
i run 15w40 year around and would change oil with change of seasons regardless of hours. yes you probably need to change your fuel filter and six turns isn't excessive cranking in my opinion. the glow plugs will last thousands of hours also. it is possible that your primary fuel pump is a little weak but from the way it sounds to me i would just change the fuel filter and the air filters before i did anything else. as for the super udt oil in the tranny you are correct it is the oil to use. there are cases of these units going many thousands of hours without any trouble.
 

bordercollie

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Agreed. I have always used 15w40 John Deere Plus II in my RTVs and neither had blow by nor used oil in the combined 8,300 hours of use. I only use the JD engine oil because we have it for all of our large JD tractors. I go Kubota Sudt2 all the way in the transmissions. ..and only Kubota filters there also. bordercollie
 

geohorn

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SUPER Site Supporter
So we don't really know the answer here? We've been putting Rotella 15w40 conventional in our RTVX1120d, but I want to change it to 5w30 synthetic something. It doesn't start very well, I wonder if a thinner will help create more heat by permitting a freer, faster crank.

It seems we do know the answer: Kubota stipulates NOT to use CJ-4 oil in Kubota RTV engines. That is very clear.

Subsequent ratings of oil (IE: CK, etc) ARE OK for use in RTV engines. (The CJ4 oil is specially suited for DPF equipped engines and should NOT be used on non-DPF engines. CK oil meets both engine type requirements and may be used in either. But it remains, Kubata specifically warns NOT TO USE CJ-4 OIL in RTV engines because they do not have a DPF installed. The problem seems to be that the RTV engines use spark-arrestor mufflers which are not efficient with CJ-4 oil specs and may not meet design requirements for Forest Service rules if that oil is used in a non-DPF equipped engine. IE, it’s not the engine, it’s the exhaust that is not served well in RTVs if CJ4 oil is used. Typical poor meaning in translations of manuals to English.)
 

Slamm

New member
I use Rotella T6 (5w-40) in every diesel engine from pickups, big trucks, tractors, skidders, track loaders and the RTV. It matches Amsoil is quality and can be found most everywhere for a decent price.
Sam
 

ItBmine

Well-known member
You can run CJ4. It is backwards compatible.

It was the same with my tractor. Manual says do not use CJ4, but when you buy Kubota branded oil from dealer it say CJ4 on it, LOL

I run Rotella T6 CJ4 5W40 synthetic in mine.
 

10-e-c-dirt

Active member
I use Rotella 5-40 or 15-40 in Everything, Kawasaki engine lawn mower, Honda 4wheeler, Chevy 3500 truck, Chevy car, Kubota RTV, 3 diesel 75 to 95 hp farm tractors. The 2018 2 seat sports car gets Mobil 1 only because it supposedly comes from factory with Mobil 1 in the crankcase and its under warranty.
 

ItBmine

Well-known member
Just look at the donut symbol on the oil jugs. You are safe with CJ-4 or CK-4. They are all backwards compatible.

What you need to avoid is the new FA-4 oils. They are designed for the newest heavy duty emission engines and have little backwards compatibility.

I'm in the trucking industry, so I kinda follow all the new products and oils.
 

geohorn

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Just look at the donut symbol on the oil jugs. You are safe with CJ-4 or CK-4. They are all backwards compatible.

What you need to avoid is the new FA-4 oils. They are designed for the newest heavy duty emission engines and have little backwards compatibility.

I'm in the trucking industry, so I kinda follow all the new products and oils.

Kubota stipulates NOT to use CJ-4 oil in Kubota RTV engines. That is very clear. Read the owner/operator manual.

(I’m in the aircraft maintenance industry and I kinda pay close attention to details.) :bonk:

In my previous post I explained it. Why is it important to know this? Because if you shop for good value you may have inadvertently bought a quantity of CJ-4 oil on-sale and have it sitting around. If so... DO NOT USE IT in your RTV. (However, using subsequent designated oils such as “CK-4” etc would be permissible as I also said earlier.). Hope that explains it.
 
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ItBmine

Well-known member
"Kubota stipulates NOT to use CJ-4 oil in Kubota RTV engines."

And as I said....when you get KUBOTA branded oil from your KUBOTA dealer look at the jug. It is CJ-4. Because that is a newer oil that superceeds the old oil.

I talk to Kubota reps at dealer shows. They told me Kubota literature and brochures are famous for not being accurate or being translated to English properly.

But if you don't feel confident using CJ-4 don't use it. The rest of us will and not have any issues and still have our warranty honored.

Another thing the reps have told me......where it says in the some of the Kubota tractor service manuals that on the first change you only need to change the filters and not the hydro oil.....they said you would have to have rocks in your head to do that.
They laughed at all these people that use shop vacs and other methods to not lose oil while they only change filters....then come crying for warranty down the road.
And the people that have to replace a final drive for their excavator at a couple thousand dollars because they didn't change 2 quarts of oil.
 

geohorn

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"Kubota stipulates NOT to use CJ-4 oil in Kubota RTV engines."

And as I said....when you get KUBOTA branded oil from your KUBOTA dealer look at the jug. It is CJ-4. Because that is a newer oil that superceeds the old oil.

I talk to Kubota reps at dealer shows. They told me Kubota literature and brochures are famous for not being accurate or being translated to English properly.
....


I don’t buy Kubota branded oil...but the oil I found at my Kubota dealer is rated. CK-4/SN ... not CJ4.

In any case, I’d not trust the verbal anecdotes from “reps” at shows who bear no responsibility for honoring warranty. Get them to put it in writing on Kubota letterhead and see how much success you have at that. Meanwhile, consider why Kubota puts things in writing if they don’t mean what they say.

I”m not looking for a pissing contest. I only reported what Kubota says about CJ4 oil in WRITING.... and thought it curious myself... and thought others might not have noticed. Do what you like to your own equipment... and consider if one’s use of CJ4 will be warrantied by “reps at shows” or participants at discussion forums while you purchase your oil that violates Kubota’s written instructions. IMO
 
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