Charles missing post (partial) Horsepower, plain and simple

Coldnature · Jun 8, 2008

While researching the rtvvehicles I came upon this post and saved it for future reference. 

Ive been watching this site forsometime andit seems to havemore than its share oflost content. Maybe a better form of backup is in order. Im no web master but I do visit many sites and Ive yet to find another with as many issues. I hope the site gets repaired. Too much good info here to get lost. 

Charles I'm trying to find a soltion to your fuel delivery problem.

Take care all 
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06-06-2008 3:32 PM <o

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<h4 style="margin: auto 0in;">Horsepower, plain and simple </h4>
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I've got an RTV 900 that I've had for around a year now. Other than some initial issues with its not having any steering stops, and the broken CV joint it has done "fine" for me.<o

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It doesn't have enough horsepower. I am certain that there is nothing wrong with it, they just don't have enough power period. NowI'm hoping thatsomeone can explain how the injection pump is governed for fuel delivery.<o

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I need the maximum fuel the injection pump can deliver. I will install a turbocharger to burn it with, but can't do anything with the turbo if I can't get more fuel.<o

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To put this into perspective, these things need about TWICE the power they make. So the injection pump must deliver more fuel or I'm just going to have to sell it. I can't drive something this underpowered.<o

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Again, I've driven others, they're all the same. Gutless.<o

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Can't climb anything worth climbing, can't spin its own tires when any traction worth having can be found, and can't get out of its own way.<o

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Just about any serious ATV makes it look stupid. <o

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Sorry if that seems harsh, but I get tired of people acting like this pathetic amount of power is actually acceptable. Someone must know how to turn up the pump. Injection pump that is.<o

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Mine just dynoed 14.6rwhp on the dynojet.That's aproblem.My freakin lawnmower makes more power than that.<o

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If anyone wants to honestly talk about making these things have some power I'm all ears. And I'm sure plenty of others are too. The power they make stock is NOT okay! It's pathetic.<o

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Thanks.<o

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<h4 style="margin: auto 0in;">Re: Horsepower, plain and simple </h4>
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If you bought that to only play with then you bought it for the wrong reason. It is a 90% work machine and a 10% play.<o

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Where the maple sap flows RTVG900 w/Tracks: L3830 Kubota<o

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<h4 style="margin: auto 0in;">Re: Horsepower, plain and simple </h4>
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Well since it can't take a bed full of hay up the hills in the pasture because it can't spin its own tires I'd say it's about 1% work and 0% play. If it does manage to actually climb a grade by the grace of God it takes so long that you'd have been better off using a wheelbarrel.<o

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The real kicker is that when it falls on its face and can't do something the Gator just gets pulled off of what it's doing and gets it done, then goes back to work elsewhere.<o

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I can't work this thing. It couldn't even pull my truck up the DRIVEWAY from the barn because the engine would lug down and then the tires would stop spinning. Or juuuust barely spin when it lost traction. When it has enough traction to get something done, it runs out of power. At least the EZGO will go out with a fight. It will spin down if it can't do something. The RTV just lays over and gives up.<o

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So because the Gator will actually shoot dirt off of all 4 tires attempting to get something done, that means it's just for play? I think it means it's worth a damn. Something I can't say for the RTV unless some fuel can be had out of the pump. It's a dog. They all are.<o

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Surely someone has information on how to increase the fuel delivery from the pump. I need enough fuel to roll coal thick and heavy with it naturally aspirated. That way with a turbocharger I can clean that up and make some power. Something it lacks horribly.<o

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Thanks.<o

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On Edit:<o

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I don't care to disguss whether or not some people feel that these things have enough power. I just want to know the quickest way to damn near double the fuel injection quantity because that's the first step to doubling the power output with a turbo. It doesn't smoke a drop now, so there's plenty of room for more power.<o

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<h4 style="margin: auto 0in;">Re: Horsepower, plain and simple </h4>
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YesSir Charles !!!<o

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 No Discussion Here !!!!<o

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 I will just hope & pray your situation improves !!!!!!!! A man don't need to go on threw life being unhappy >>>><o

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TWO GUNS · Jun 8, 2008

Coldnature,

Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the " saved backup " !!!

We can now pick up where we all left off ~~~~

Charles,did you purchase this RTV new ? Didit act like that when you test fired the unit, or did it slowly start acting like you stated ?

 ~~~~~~ Two Guns ~~~~~~

Charles · Jun 10, 2008

It has always run this way. I have serviced it as required and it has not ever run rough or badly. It just lacks power IMO. Not that it lacks power compared to other RTV's. I haven't driven many, but seeing them running around they all move with the same pace.

On another note, when I was on the dyno I adjusted the little stop bolt for the throttle linkage. Now I cannot see how it can actually travel this extra distance due to there not being any kind of a spring or anything similar to allow for extra travel out of the linkage, being that both the Hydrostatic control and engine governer are both fixed to the same bracket. However, it managed to do it somehow, because the vehicle is night and day different. So much so that while grading the cow pasture last night I actually loaded the bed up with dirt and took off up the hill to the gate and once it hit the meat of the hill it actually lifted the front left tire a good bit and both front tires for a moment or so and didn't give up on me for the first time since I've owned it.

I have to say that I can honestly use this thing now for something other than just riding down the road. Now if I can get some serious fuel and add a turbocharger I may get a real workhorse out of this thing.



I'm going to try and contact the owner of the pulling truck to see about what he did to make his roal coal like that. With a turbocharger, the amount of fuel he had laying down behind his RTV would make for a very swift little machine.

TWO GUNS · Jun 10, 2008

Charles,

Happy things are lookin' up for you.But I have to ask,do you know howto or how the two stagehydro-transmission works in these units. For a operatorcannot hold it to the floor like a pick-up truck and make it go, you got to let off the pedal to make the second stage pumpkick in for all the power to release. There are threads on this topic on this forum.When I first purchased my unit, for a few days,I didn't know how to use the " two stage " transmission, and until I was told on this forum. I also thoughtmine didn't have the power like the rtv's should have. Once I learned how to operate the transmission the way it was designed. I found that I hadmore power than ever. As time went on, there were several folks here local, that went threw the same thing. And I'd would load 'em up in the rtv, take them to the levee, and show them, then everything would fall in place. With the RTV's, one has to learn the " sweet spot " as bczoom stated once, were the pump kicks in, once you mastered that, you've will find all the power that you need.

There is one local man here, that has had his over two years, and wouldn't even hardly run it for he thought it didn't have the power. Until we showed him to proper way to master the transmission, now, he's like a kid with a new toy, working his all over his farm !!!!

On another note, then again, your pump might not have come from the factory set proper, it happens. Have you talked to you Kubota mechanic about this situation ?

Not saying that you don't know how to run your machine, but as time goes on , including myself, people has to learn how to operate this kind of transmission to get the best out of it. And until then, it will be very agrivating !!!! Found out that 95% of folks thinking that the machine has no power was coming from nobody told or showed them how to run the RTV >>>>>.

 ~~~~~~ Two Guns ~~~~~~

DigOrange · Jun 10, 2008

I also found that gear selection is very interesting in the RTV. When I get mine stuck in Medium and just throw it in 4WD, it will usually not be able to spin the tires. But when I drop it in Low and then feather the throttle, it will pull the nads off a rhino. For fun I hooked it up to my brothers forklift sitting on pavement. In Medium it didn't budge. In Low I was able to get 3 of 4 tires spinning (differential lock). The next day I was really pissed that I tried that with my machine but at the time it sounded like a good idea (yes, the phrase "hold my beer" was uttered).

TWO GUNS · Jun 10, 2008

[quote user="DigOrange"]

(yes, the phrase "hold my beer" was uttered).
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Hey Dig, did you have them " beer goggles " on ?I can see you now, can't stop laughing !!!!

 ~~~~~~ Two Guns ~~~~~~

Charles · Jun 10, 2008

Near as I can tell, a hydrostatic power transmission is simply a device that modulates the volume of fluid acting on a hydraulic motor in one form or another. Similar to if you had a variable swashplate piston pump and the lever to alter the swashplate were attached to the same lever that actuated the engine's governer.

When the engine runs out of power, you can lift off the throttle a little and the change in load from the pump will allow the engine to accelrate some, likely up into a higher power rpm point. At this point you will be accomplishing more work. Not because of a "two stage" system or anything, just because you're not pulling the engine down so far.

Same thing would happen when a truck starts lugging badly. Instead of just pinning it down in that gear, you would downshift and the rpm would climb back into a range where the engine made more power.

Problem with the RTV is that you cannot independently control the engine governor and the transmission load on that engine. So you have decided it's okay to let off of the engine a little because the load from the pump will drop more, and the net effect is more power translated to the ground.

Whereas I want the tranny pulling as hard as it knows how to, and the only thing that happens when the load hits is I hear a turbo spool and crap starts flying off the tires.

I'm not interested in giving in to the weak engine and letting up on it by backing out of the pump. I simply need enough power to pull right on through the pump even with it balls out.

river · Jun 10, 2008

I'll chime in here. I just got my RTV 1100 delivered yesterday at 1:30 PM. Took a short ride around the property, and tried the steepest hill I have. Remembered the mentions of the "two-stage transmission" on this forum. Pulled my right foot back about half way on the throttle - the rpm's went up, speed went down, but I went up the hill, after coming to a stop due to the steepness of the hill. I was in 4wd, but no diff lock.

I read the entire owner's manual today, and was amazed that there is NO mention of this. Maybe there is in the Shop Manual, which I haven't read yet.

I'm working the rest of the week, but there will be pictures on the weekend. Also info on insurance, which was in another thread.

Happy so far (and I got a free $20K hat).

Doug

Charles · Jun 10, 2008

Here's my problem with that.



The accelerator pedal..... read that again, accelerator pedal, is the input from the operator about how fast they want the vehicle to move forward. So no matter what the situation, nor the scenario, when the pedal is to the floor and the operator is asking for maximum vehicle speed the vehicle should be setup in such a way that he gets just that.

How much sense does it make to have something where the vehicle delivers more power to the ground at half throttle than at full throttle? 

Now since the tranny and engine controls are tied to one another, you have to sacrifice a hair of engine power to get a bit more of a break from the pump when asking for maximum applied torque. This is due to your having to actually release the accelerator some to pull harder (scratches head).

What I have thought about, and may actually do, is to have a servo motor from say a 1/4 scale RC vehicle or similar, control the hydrostatic mechanism lever, while the accelerator pedal only directly links the driver's foot to the engine governor. Full throttle, full fuel, full engine power. Then have a processor read in engine speed and at a TPS of 90% or greater for instance, have the processor control the servo position (hydrostatic transmission "load") such that peak engine power rpm is maintained no matter what. That would be the absolute most efficient way to do this.

At lighter pedal positions the engine rpm target would drop off some so that you weren't winding the engine out just to put around.

Now that, is a real solution. Letting off the pedal is not

That's my opinion and suggested solution. Small microprocessor control over the hydro functions, and let the driver control what he wants to control...... the engine.

On another note. Since the tranny would not be connected directly to the engine governer (and your foot) when you lifted off the throttle you would no longer have to fly through the windshield. This is because the hydro lever would not have to be pulled all the way back to zero along witht the engine governer each time.

This way you could have the processor maintain an amount of hydro flow that when you released the accelerator the vehicle simply coasted until you hit the brakes, at which point you could use a conjunction of service braking as well as have the processor bring in the engine braking with the hydro via servo control proportionate to brake line pressure.

Now tell me that wouldn't be amazing to drive.

muleman2 · Jun 10, 2008

have you tried the manual throttle control? some members have had good luck using that to maintain rpms and foot pedal to control ground speed. remember these things are based on a bx23 tractor drivetrain so they must be run like a tractor for max output. I regularly load mine up with a double rack of firewood and climb hills that I have to lean out over the dash to keep the front wheels down and digging along with diff.lock on. only time I don't have enough power is if I use too high a gear. Bill B.

Charles · Jun 10, 2008

Well I got ahold of some people today about the pump delivery. Hopefully I can get a detailed explantion of how to address the injection quantity. I know I have seen an RTV absolutely ROLLING coal. If I can get that much fuel with just a little boost it should wake right up. I would say 50% or more horsepower should be within reason with a turbocharger and more fuel.



Does anyone know for sure if this engine is DI or IDI? I would like to think it's DI but sometimes at idle I sounds kind of IDI to me.

randu2 · Jun 10, 2008

I'm new here and read about releasing the pedal to gain torque and it will also reduces speed. On the Kubota site there is an animation of how thetransmissionworks and they don't show thepeddlebeing released to gain torque. I'm somewhat confused now.

Here's the link. http://www.kubota.com/f/Products/rtv1100/system.cfm

Randy

Charles · Jun 11, 2008

This is also why explanation of a "two stage" anything will not be found in the workshop manual. It doesn't exist. People are simply running out of power and releasing some of the load by letting up on the pedal. This lets the engine rpm climb back to the power peak where more torque can be applied to the ground.

It is absolutely no different than if you're driving a machine that does have independent hydrostatic control and engine governer control if you were to just bury the hydro to the stop. You would likely kill off the engine so far that it wasn't making much power anymore, or actually stall it. Whereas there is an optimum amount of load that can be applied to gain maximum work out of the engine without pulling it down below the rpm range where it makes the most power.

The root issue is the fact that the engine does not produce enough horsepower to pull the hydrostatic unit even with it at full load and simply start spinning the tires.

I still believe the optimum way to control this would be to place the hydro function under processor control such that optimum engine loading would occur at all times independent of pedal position. I just may have to do it too. A simple hall effect sensor for a tach reference, a TPS on the pedal, a robust servo motor and a properly designed driver box would make tranny control perfect for all scenarios, and allow the engine to remain directly at it's power peak when asked for maximum applied torque from the vehicle.

It would also do away with the complaints from some people about how the machine rushes to a stop instead of coasting when the pedal is lifted. And the pedal and engine/hydro response wouldn't be so sluggish and "floaty" like it is with everything on one assembly with a damper involved. You could actually have excellent response if the pedal moved the engine governer lever only.

If I had to address the issue of controlling this thing, that would be my best shot at it.

TWO GUNS · Jun 11, 2008

Have youthought aboutchanging thepressurevalve to the one thelater 900 & the 1100 have. They give you more pressure in your transmission......Don't know when your purchase was made, but sometime at the end of 2006, they started putting the same pressurevalve in the 900 that the 1100 carries. Know some folks had changed them outon the older models, and it made a bigdifference on the transmission pressure, which made the RTV perform better.Just a suggestion. Also, they installed a the hand throttle kit, which kept the pressure up at all times on the transmission, and the performance pick up much. 

Other than that, your idea of a turbo might just make things better for you ~~~~~



~~~~~~ Two Guns ~~~~~~

Charles · Jun 11, 2008

Yeah, I actually talked to a mechanic that works on these after it wouldn't pull my truck up the hill from the barn and he explained to me how to check the pressure and how the swash plates were redesigned because the early design would sometimes warp. I have not dug into the hydrostatic unit yet because it is still pulling the engine down. If the engine power comes up and the hydrostatic unit isn't capable of holding the power I will look to increase the pressure and swap the swash plate.

I am serioiusly thinking about putting together a microprocessor controlled unit for the hydrostatic transmission lever though. I think it would increase the capability, driveability and fun factor two fold easy.

First I need to get the fuel taken care of and get a pyro in the exhaust manifold and a water temp gauge for the engine to ensure everbody stays happy.

Still working on the details to the pump modifications.

Charles · Jun 14, 2008

I see that people make turbo kits for these machines, so apparently I'm not the only one beliving more power would be of some benefit.

Charles missing post (partial) Horsepower, plain and simple

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